The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Good afternoon. As we begin this afternoon's session, and, on behalf of you all, I'm sure, I would like to welcome the First Minister back to Plenary. And the first item will be questions to the First Minister, and the first question is from Ken Skates.

Employment for Young People

Ken Skates AC: 1. What is the Welsh Government doing to help young people into employment in Clwyd South? OQ59159

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the continued buoyancy of the economy in north-east Wales is the single greatest help to young people entering employment in the Member’s constituency. For those further from the labour market, the young person’s guarantee provides a range of assistance to prepare young people for, and place them in, the world of work.

Ken Skates AC: Thank you, First Minister. The young people's guarantee really has been a tremendous success in the year that it's been operating, having found work for 11,000 people across Wales. And the unemployment rate in Wales continues to track below the UK unemployment rate average as well. What can employers do to attract the workforceof the future, alongside, obviously, the range of excellent Welsh Labour Government schemes such as the young people's guarantee?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, Welsh Government officials have been engaged recently in a series of meetings with employers in different parts of Wales, including in north Wales. And the story out there, as you know, is no longer a shortage of work, but a shortage of workers. There are 330,000 fewer people in the workforce across the United Kingdom than there were in 2016. And that means that young people in particular are sought after by employers, and the nature of the discussion has been about the sorts of things that young people say to employers that they are looking for. And they're looking for a career path and progression, they're looking for flexibility in the workplace, they're looking for the values that they see an employer bringing—a commitment to fair work, a commitment to climate responsibilities. So, I think there are lessons, very clearly, from young people themselves, about the sorts of things that they will find attractive in a workplace where they are a scarce resource.
The responsibility of Government, Llywydd, comes in making sure that those young people who are not yet ready to enter the workplace get every help that they can through the young person's guarantee, whether that is a place in training, whether it's skill development, whether it's supported placements in the workplace, so that we can make sure that all those young people in Wales, looking to make their contribution to our economy, are fully equipped to do so.

Sam Rowlands MS: I'm grateful to Ken Skates for submitting today's important question. I would like to echo the comments made by him, and by you as well, First Minister, in relation to the young person's guarantee, something which, on these sides of the benches, we have been supporting. Of course, as you outlined, it's that offer there for everyone under the age of 25—the offer of work, education, training or self-employment. And, last week, First Minister, I had the privilege of joining the vice-chancellor and her team at Wrexham Glyndŵr University to hear about all the good work taking place in the business school in particular at the university, and to hear about their relationship with industry, and with businesses in Wrexham and Clwyd South, and in north Wales as a region. So, First Minister, will you join me in recognising the importance of that relationship between higher education and business and industries in north Wales, and in Wales as a whole, and how do you think that that important relationship can be built on to ensure that young people have the opportunity for employment in my region of north Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Sam Rowlands for that and absolutely agree with the point he's making, and not just higher education, but further education as well, and north Wales is particularly blessed, I think, in the quality of further education that is provided to young people in those regions.
We know that the experience of the pandemic means that even young people who have attended higher education have a sense of needing to build confidence back in order to be in the workplace. And it is interesting that a number of the schemes that run under the remit of the youth guarantee are actually taking young people who have graduated already under their wing in order to give them that start. And the relationship between the providers of further and higher education and the world of work, I think, is fundamentally important in making sure that those young people who need just that extra step on their journey early on, to make up for some of the experiences that they will have had to navigate over recent times, that that extra help is available to them, and supported from both sides.

Replacing the Llannerch Bridge

Gareth Davies AS: 2. What discussions has the First Minister had with Denbighshire County Council regarding plans to replace the Llannerch bridge between Trefnant and Tremeirchion? OQ59153

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank the Member for that question, Llywydd. Following discussions with Welsh Government officials, I can confirm that the council has bid for funding via our resilient roads fund to assist with the replacement of the bridge.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for that answer, First Minister. A public meeting was recently held at the White House in Rhuallt, regarding progress with the much-needed reconstruction of Llannerch bridge, following its erosion through natural causes with storm Christoph, back in 2021. Local Denbighshire residents, councillors, council leaders, and departmental heads from the authority engaged productively on officers' strategy to complete a replacement by 2026, pending Welsh Government's approval of Denbighshire County Council's recently submitted, as you've mentioned, business case for funding. As you know, residents of rural communities such as Trefnant and Tremeirchion have been isolated for two years since the bridge's collapse, and the lack of a replacement continues to prove a barrier to the Welsh Government's own climate change policy on banning road building in Wales, also necessitating lengthy road diversions and adding to burdensome costs to family budgets and various council departmental budgets. The overwhelming character of the public meeting was of a united endeavour and wish to work across the political divide to ensure that this key piece of local and historic infrastructure is restored at the earliest juncture. So, First Minister, can you today provide details of your observations of the business case from Denbighshire County Council, and detail your strategy for making sure that the good people of rural Denbighshire can stay connected, with the replacement of Llannerch bridge, to ensure the safe movement of rural residents in Denbighshire? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Gareth Davies for those further questions. I agree with him—it's certainly not a matter of political contention that the needs of those local residents need to be attended to. The resilient roads fund, Llywydd, normally only takes applications from pre-existing schemes, but in this case, with the bridge having been destroyed by natural causes, an exception has been made so that a bid can be made to that fund. And the bid, as the Member said, has now been received. It looks for some hundreds of thousands of pounds in the next financial year in order to do the necessary preparation work, because while the proposal, as I understand it, is essentially for a like-for-like replacement, with some additional active travel components, even a like-for-like bridge will require design work, and there will need to be modelling, given that it was flooding that caused the destruction of the bridge, and it's possible that some modest land acquisition will be needed to take it forward. Those are the components of work that Denbighshire County Council look to complete in the next financial year. Now, I have to just say to the Member that there are a large number of bids, as you would expect, for that fund, and officials are having to assess all the bids that come in, in the fairest possible way, and then will look to see whether it is possible to provide the funding that is being looked for next year, so that that necessary preparatory work can be completed and residents in the Member's constituency can look forward to a positive plan for the bridge to be replaced.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. First Minister, the news that the Welsh Government was putting Betsi Cadwaladr into special measures yesterday took some people by surprise, but wasn't unexpected, given the auditor general's report from the week before. The actions of the health Minister in requesting the resignations of the independent board members, given the content of that report, were surprising, because in the report it talks of the cohesiveness of the independent board members in their ability to hold the executive members to account and their frustration at the executive members not being able to engage fully. The chief executive or chief operating officer of the community health council up there has said he was shocked to see that the independent board members had to resign. Why did the independent board members, bearing in mind the words in the report about the cohesiveness and the work that they were doing as independent board members, have to resign?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I don't think, myself, Llywydd, that it could have come as a shock to anybody who was reasonably well-informed about the operation of the board. I'm looking now at the letter sent by Janet Finch-Saunders, a member of the leader of the opposition's own group, to the Minister in which she called for the entire removal of the board, including independent members who are found to be unable to deliver what is required by internal interventions. If it was apparent to a local Conservative Member that independent members needed to be removed, I find it difficult to imagine that it was shocking news to anybody else in the north of Wales. What the Minister did was to make an assessment of what the auditor general had said, plus other sources of information that concluded that the fractured relationships within the board were clear, ongoing, deep-seated and intractable and that working relations could not be repaired. That is the basis on which the Minister made her decision.

Andrew RT Davies AC: The point I was making about the special measures, First Minister, was that residents in north Wales, given that the health board was only recently taken out of special measures, would understandably be shocked that it's going back into special measures after being in special measures for six years. The independent members of the board, by the words of the report of the auditor general, were working in a cohesive manner to hold the executive to account. Now, I hear what you say about my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders, the Member for Aberconwy, and I'm sure, through her interactions, she has formed an opinion, but the comments from the health Minister, stating that these independent members had to resign, do not bear fruit with the evidence that the auditor general had in his report. The point I am making to you is that, throughout that report, the executive members were held to be deficient in their work and their responsibilities, and, actually, the arguments and discussions that were held within the board, very often, were at the feet of those executive members being poorly informed, not across the issues that they had executive responsibility for, and yet each and every one of those individuals is still in place. So, can you not see where the ability to understand the logic of demanding the independent members resign—? But executive members, who are criticised right the way through this report—right the way through this report—are still in post.

Mark Drakeford AC: I understand a number of the points that the Member makes, and what I think he needs to do is to allow the story to continue to unfold. What you saw yesterday was the first set of measures that the Minister has taken. There are very real criticisms of executive members and those, too, will need to be attended to. The fact that those actions were not taken yesterday should not be taken as meaning that no action will be taken at all. It's just that things have to be done in a way that respects people's legal rights and in a way that would stand up to external scrutiny. The board, however, has to operate as a coherent whole, and you cannot, I think, sensibly separate the responsibilities of the executive and the independent members. When you have reports of a breakdown in those relationships, when you read of the way in which the conduct and behaviour of the board has itself become part of the problem of providing health services in north Wales, then actions to deal with the whole of the board, including its independent members, who are not exonerated in any way by the auditor general's report, nor by other information from north Wales—. What you saw yesterday was a starting point. There is a good deal more to do.

Andrew RT Davies AC: With the point about 'a good deal more to do', First Minister, what is the vision for the Welsh Government's thinking when it comes to health provision in north Wales? It isn't right. It isn't fair for the staff within that health board, and importantly the patients and people of north Wales who depend on their primary and acute care for delivery by Betsi Cadwaladr health board. Can the existing model be resurrected, reinvigorated and re-energised to deliver that healthcare, or is the thinking of the Welsh Government that a clean break is required, and, ultimately, over the medium to long term, given the evidence that has accumulated to date, something completely different needs to emerge about providing health in north Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the immediate action is to appoint a small number of individuals to discharge the legal functions and to stabilise the organisation. You know that a chair has been appointed and there will be three other members alongside the chair, and their job in the short term is to stabilise the organisation, to concentrate on the appointment of a new chief executive.
What I would say to the leader of the opposition is this: I think one of the things that we have learned from the difficult experience from time to time at Betsi Cadwaladr, a board, by the way, which does go on, through its staff, providing successful treatment to thousands of patients every single day, is that reliance on heroic individuals, the idea that a new chair, by him or herself, will solve the problems of the organisation, or a new chief executive by her or himself is the answer—I think we've learnt that that is not a sufficient response to the way in which services over such a diverse population, with cultural differences between the north-west and the north-east, that our reliance on the idea that if you could only get the right person that that would solve the issues that have been there now over a persistent period of time, that, by itself, is not the answer. It will need something that is more fundamental than that, and the actions the Minister took yesterday and the statement she'll make later this afternoon will explain how that more fundamental reform of the organisation will be taken forward in the future.

Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Betsi Cadwaladr is a failing health board. It's failing patients and it's failing staff. The Tawel Fan inquiry found a catalogue of shocking and unacceptable failures in the care of some of the most vulnerable patients, some with dementia, left to lie naked on the floor. Patient safety risks have been identified, with several critical reports into vascular services. An amputee's wife had to carry him to the toilet after he was sent home from hospital without a care plan. There are fractured working relationships, as you've just referred to, First Minister, fundamentally compromising the health board's ability to deal with the significant challenges it faces—not my words, but those of the auditor general. I've highlighted just three reports, but that's just the tip of the iceberg, as you yourself have just intimated. How many more damning reports are you willing to accept on your watch before a Labour health Minister takes responsibility?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the Labour health Minister took responsibility yesterday, and there are 60 minutes for Members to ask questions of the Minister later this afternoon.

Adam Price AC: Your Government's decision to take Betsi out of special measures was a blatant attempt to pull the wool over people's eyes. Two years ago, and with an election looming, you wanted to give the impression that you had guided the health board through significant reform, that you had done your job. It was premature. It's proved to be reckless, and it demonstrated a lack of judgment and leadership. In a BBC interview last night, the health Minister said, 'I can't be there doing the operations myself.' It was, to say the least, a glib response. There's no expectation that the Minister wears scrubs, but at the very least we should expect Ministers to show the necessary leadership to turn the health board around. This morning, the Minister said:
'It wasn't my job to have a grasp on things, they were in charge.'
Will there ever be a point where the buck stops with the Minister? Or is it just the board that can be hired and fired?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, given his contribution so far this afternoon, I think the Member will wish to reflect on his use of the word 'glib' in relation to anybody else's contributions. Let me tell him now that that I utterly reject what I regard as a disgraceful charge that the decisions made in November 2020 were motivated by anything other than the advice that the Welsh Government received from the tripartite system on which we rely. The decision, and it is a decision of Ministers, to take the board out of special measures was because we were advised that that is what we should do by the auditor general, by Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and by Welsh Government officials whose job it is to provide Ministers with the advice.FootnoteLinkThat was the basis of the decision, and I think the Member should withdraw what he has said by casting, I think, a slur on the reputation of those bodies. He's happy enough for us to follow their advice when it suits him, and when it doesn't suit him he wants to cast aspersions on the motives of Welsh Government Ministers. He should know better.

Adam Price AC: The King's Fund that was working with the health board on governance, this is how they described things in the winter of 2020, when you decided it was fit to take the health board out of special measures: the fund observed deteriorating executive behaviour, with individual executive team members criticising each other to the chair and independent members, deepening independent member concern about executive team cohesion. How, on the basis of that informed judgment on behalf of the King's Fund, who were working with the board at the time, could you decide that it was right to take them out of special measures?
I have to say to the First Minister, this is part of a wider pattern, isn't it, of a catastrophic mismanagement on the part of this Government of healthcare. And after 25 years of responsibility for delivering healthcare in Wales, isn't it true that you've simply run out of ideas? You're throwing money at short-term, sticking-plaster solutions, with ever diminishing returns. Are you prepared, in looking at a root-and-branch review and reform of Betsi Cadwaladr, are you prepared to consider the option to break up the board completely and have a different structure, as Plaid Cymru has consistently advocated, rather than simply, once again, rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, the King's Fund report was published in November 2022, not in November 2020, when the decision was made. I advise the Member to read what was said by the British Medical Association on 6 December, when they said that the problem of the Welsh NHS was that 'wolf' had been cried too often, including by them, and I think he's just at it again today. The Welsh NHS, every single day, provides successful treatment. I know he wants to shake his head, but this is simply the truth of the matter, isn't it? To his constituents, to my constituents, and to constituents of every other Member here, the health service in Wales provides, every single day, effective treatment provided by dedicated people who go far beyond what could be expected of them to do. We don't get more out of the health service or tend to the very real challenges that it faces in north Wales and elsewhere by not recognising that it is a system that continues to succeed far more than it fails. Where there is a need for action, as there was yesterday, the Minister took that action, and she's here in the Senedd this afternoon to explain to Members and to answer further questions on why her action was necessary and what will now take place.

Harmful Pesticides

Mike Hedges AC: 3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to reduce the use of harmful pesticides? OQ59154

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, our policy is to reduce, to the lowest possible level, the effect of pesticide on people, wildlife, plants and the wider environment. There has been a steady reduction in agricultural pesticide use in Wales over the devolution period, but there is more that we can and will do in the future.

Letter from the First Minister on 24 April 2023.
Letter from the First Minister on 26 April 2023.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank the First Minister for that response? All chemical pesticides are potentially harmful to people and the environment. Of course, some are worse than others, but none are completely safe. Whilst all pesticides are designated to kill targeted pests and problems, unfortunately it's much, much more than those specific targets that are affected; many are washed into rivers, creating problems. The worst pesticides include atrazine, hexachlorobenzene, glyphosate, methomyl and rotenone. Based on World Health Organization data, they're particularly hazardous because of bioaccumulation, persistence in water, soil and sediment, toxicity to aquatic organisms, and toxicity to bees and the ecosystem. Glyphosate is regularly used. Will the First Minister look either to ban the aforementioned pesticides or suggest that they are not used by public bodies in Wales?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank Mike Hedges for that further question. I think these are really important issues that deserve to be more thoroughly and regularly publicly aired. There's good news, I think, in responding to him: the note that I have tells me that atrazine, hexachlorobenzene and methomyl are already banned for use in the United Kingdom and here in Wales. Rotenone has its use limited now to dealing only with invasive fish species, and I think that probably points to the dilemma at the heart of the debate that Mike Hedges has opened for us this afternoon, which is, while pesticides can cause harm, sometimes there are genuine uses for them that prevent even larger harm, and dealing with invasive species is one of the ways in which those powerful chemical pesticides can still have a beneficial use.
Glyphosate is the most commonly used of the pesticides that Mike Hedges referred to. We have up until now followed the rules used in the European Union. The European Union extended its existing permissions for the use of glyphosate for a further 12 months in November of last year, and it's expected that they will issue fresh advice on that before the end of this calendar year. That will feed into a new United Kingdom national action plan for sustainable use of pesticides. We're expecting that by the middle of 2023.
Wales can go further than that plan if we are not satisfied with its scope, and I very much agree with the point that Mike Hedges made towards the end of his supplementary question: in the policy world that surrounds pesticides, they talk of three different use classes. There is agriculture, there is amateur use—you can buy glyphosate in any garden centre—and then there is amenity use, the use of such pesticides by local authorities and others. That's the area that I am keen that we focus on. I don't believe there is a case for using that sort of chemical, for example, on a school playing field, but we don't yet have a rulebook in Wales that prevents that from happening. There's a great deal of good work that goes on to reduce the use of pesticides in that way; there are opportunities in this calendar year to make that more formally part of the system that we have in Wales.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm pleased to hear that the Welsh Government is committed to reducing the use of harmful pesticides, particularly when a threat is posed to human health, but science, technology and innovation can be the answer here, and that's why I was left frustrated that consent was not given to the Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill. This legislation can aid our resilience against some of the most significant challenges ahead of us, including the protection of plants and crops against pests, diseases and climate change. By taking what occurs naturally over hundreds of years, precision breeding can expedite the process in a controlled, ethical and safe way, building that resilience in plants and crops and reducing our reliance upon harmful pesticides. Given this, can I ask if the Welsh Government is to bring forward Welsh legislation in this field to ensure that we can build that resilience into our crops, utilising Welsh academia such as the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences at Aberystwyth University? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Sam Kurtz for the question.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the National Assembly, as it was then, and the Senedd, has always taken always taken a precautionary approach to the issue of genetic modification of plants; I think we are right to do so. I think if we could be guaranteed that it would be done in the way that Sam Kurtz outlined, that would be a different matter, but we can't be guaranteed, because these are inherently and intrinsically experimental ways of interfering with the genetic make-up of plants and other substances. Our view has been that we shouldn't do that until the science is fundamentally proven to be safe. I think the Senedd made the right decision in relation to withholding legislative consent.

A Health and Well-being Centre in Bangor

Siân Gwenllian AC: 4. Will the First Minister provide an update on the plan to create a health and well-being centre in the centre of Bangor? OQ59158

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you very much, Llywydd, to Siân Gwenllian for that question. The proposed centre formed part of the bid made by Gwynedd Council to the UK Government's levelling-up fund; the bid was unsuccessful. Welsh Government officials are helping local partners to pursue alternative funding. The Minister for Economy will discuss this during his meeting with the leader of Gwynedd Councilon 6 March.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I was extremely disappointed to hear that the UK Government had rejected the bid for £15 million towards this important project. Once again, we see the Tories ignoring Bangor and showing just how little they care about the people of Arfon and the north-west of Wales. But I am determined to continue campaigning for this plan and to support the efforts of Gwynedd Council, and all the other partners, to bring a new health centre to the centre of this city, which would give a huge boost to high-street shops as well as improving health facilities in the area. As you said, your Government too is supportive of this proposal and is committed to contributing funding for it. Can you confirm that that funding is still on the table, despite the fact that the Tories didn't see fit to complete this financial package? And will you commit to doing everything possible in order to deliver this important project?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Siân Gwenllian for that supplementary question. I agree, of course, that it was very disappointing that the UK Government wasn't prepared to support the bid that Gwynedd Council had submitted. Llywydd, I had the opportunity back in January to meet with the council leader and others in the centre of Bangor and to hear from the council leader about the projects that are there to regenerate the town centre and to hear more generally about the masterplan that was created for that purpose.
Now, Welsh Government officials will collaborate with local people to look for other possibilities in terms of continuing with the process of choosing a site for a new health and well-being centre and more funding to complete that work. It's likely that one of the routes for further funding will be through the regional partnership board, and we are looking forward to the future and to seeing a bid coming in to the integration capital fund of the Welsh Government, if the regional partnership board does include the plan for the new centre in Bangor as one of their priorities.

Dentistry for Children

James Evans MS: 5. What is the Welsh Government doing to make sure children have access to good-quality dentistry? OQ59157

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, prevention not intervention has to be the aim of good-quality dental care for children. The Designed to Smile scheme is now operating fully again, and nearly 240,000 children have been treated in general dental services since April 2022. Of that number, over 55,000 are new patients.

James Evans MS: Thank you, First Minister, for your answer. In my constituency, accessing a dentist is extremely difficult, and even if you get a dentist, the travelling times to those dentists can be very lengthy. So, will the First Minister look at actually bringing mobile dentists into schools, so that we can actually have them in the school, so that they can get the check-ups they need to ensure that their oral health is in good condition, because we all know that good oral health leads to the overall good health and well-being of our children? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank James Evans for that, Llywydd. Members will know that originally on the order paper today was a statement from the Minister on advances in dental services in Wales, and one of the things that she would have reported to the Senedd was ideas for dealing with dental services in rural areas, and the possibility of mobile dentistry in secondary schools. So, the Member has slightly anticipated what the Minister would have said, amongst other things that she will have to say when the statement comes forward. It's to be rescheduled for two weeks' time, and I know that the Member will be listening carefully to what the Minister has to say.
In the meantime, in his part of Wales, the local health board is taking steps now to increase capacity for dental services for children. A new dental therapist has been appointed and that post is already making inroads into children who have been waiting for appointments. And a new paediatric specialist dentist has been appointed so that more children are able to receive treatment inside the county of Powys, rather than, as has been the case in the past, needing to be referred to specialist treatments further afield.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, First Minister. Just following up on the question from James Evans, it is the case that when children require intervention in dentistry, there are long waiting lists for that NHS treatment, particularly in the areas that we cover. During the pandemic, we know that the number of children receiving treatment fell by more than 80 per cent, so there is catch-up to be done. And here's a statistic that I find really shocking: tooth extraction remains the biggest cause of surgery under general anaesthetic in children. More than 7,000 operations were carried out in 2018. Now, I don't know about you, but I remember when I was waiting for an operation and at the thought of going under a general anaesthetic, I was quite anxious, but imagine being a child waiting for that treatment—mostly orthodontic treatment. In Powys alone, nearly 800 children are on waiting lists for NHS treatment.
You will, of course, be aware that the Westminster Government has capped funding for remuneration in dentistry for staff at 3.5 per cent—a figure that is far below inflation. And so, we struggle not just here in Wales, but in England as well, to recruit our dentists, and that's a decision by the Conservative Government. So, would you join me in calling for more resources from Westminster to ensure that we have a robust NHS dental system not just here in Wales, but across the country, for everybody, including our children? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Jane Dodds for that, and of course I agree with the basic proposition that she has set out that further investment across the United Kingdom in dental services would be very welcome. The Welsh Government did not set an affordability limit in our evidence to the pay review body, so the 3.5 per cent affordability level that she mentioned is advice provided by the UK Government for England only, and not advice that we have provided here in Wales.
If there were to be further investment, then as I've debated with the Member previously, my priority is for the diversification of the dental profession. And the good news is that in September of this year, we will have double the number of dental therapists emerging from Cardiff University, and that in Bangor we will have a wholly new course, again providing dental therapists for the future. What we don't need to see is the most highly trained and the most expensive part of the workforce carrying out activity that does not require that level of skill or experience to carry it out clinically appropriately and satisfactorily. We need dentistry to follow what has already happened in primary care, and to have a more diverse profession, so that the dentists we have can be concentrated on providing treatment to those patients who really need that level of care and complexity. And the future for dental services in Wales, I think, very much rests on our ability to move the profession in that direction, in the way that other parts of primary care have already managed to do successfully.

Sustainable Travel

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: 6. Beth mae'r Llywodraeth yn ei wneud i hyrwyddo teithio cynaliadwy yn Nwyrain De Cymru? OQ59163

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, implementation of the Burns commission proposals provides the most effective way of promoting sustainable travel. Publication this month of the Burns delivery unit annual report sets out the real progress already made, and future plans for walking, cycling and using public transport in south-east Wales.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Diolch yn fawr, Prif Weinidog. The recent news that road projects in Wales would not be funded was a bitter pill to swallow for some. It would have been a bit easier to understand if it had not been accompanied by the announcement a day later that the bus emergency scheme is going to be phased out in June. For many of the communities I represent, the bus service is a lifeline. For older people, it represents independence; for young people, it represents education; and for people who do not have a car, it represents employment. I fear your Government's decision is going to have a huge detrimental impact on people's lives. It would also run counter to efforts to promote sustainable transport at a time when we should be doing all we can in this field. First Minister, what impact studies have been conducted into this decision, and will you reconsider the decision on behalf of the many communities that will be worse off as a result, until the full consequences of the decision are known?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I think it's important just to set the record straight here: it was emergency funding, as the Member said. And emergency funding cannot be indefinitely extended beyond the point where the emergency led to the millions and millions of pounds that have been found by the Welsh taxpayer to support the bus industry while the emergency was in operation. Over £150 million, over and above the millions of pounds that are already invested in bus services, have been provided to the industry since the COVID pandemic began. It was always going to be gap funding to help the industry while the pandemic was having its impact.
We have already announced an extension of that scheme for a further three months—an initial three months, as the announcement said—while we are able to discuss with the industry, with local authorities, how we can focus the bus services support grant for the future, moving the industry away, as it has to move, from reliance on emergency funding and towards the future that the bus Bill that we will bring forward to the floor of the Senedd will fashion for bus services, a future in a way that matches the money that the public provides with the public's interest in an effective bus service in all parts of Wales.

Laura Anne Jones AC: First Minister, after your Government's economically damaging new policy on roads, it's becoming clearer than ever before that we need to promote and have functioning sustainable travel in place, yet we are seeing bus services cut in reality, as my fellow Member for South Wales East has just outlined, and rail services that have become a laughing stock, as I'm sure north Wales Members will also agree. This is without even mentioning the fact that you're refusing to build new roads and are way behind on electric vehicle charging points. Promoting the use of a few bus lanes here and there really isn't going to cut the mustard, as much as the Member for Llanelli would like to think it does. My question is simple, First Minister: how are you promoting sustainable travel without roads being built, without bus services increasing now, and without a functioning rail service?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the Member's party went to the people of Wales in the last Senedd election promising the largest road-building programme ever in the history of Wales, and that proposition was roundly rejected by the people of Wales. Of course, the Member can continue to put in front of people the thing that people have rejected many times already. There is a fundamental difference of view between the sort of future that she sees, in which Wales will be concreted over and the climate emergency ignored in the process, and the proposals of the Welsh Government, which, by the way, Llywydd, are never that no new roads would be built—it is just that the roads we will build will be roads where there is a safety case for doing so, and where roads contribute positively to the reduction of emissions and make the contribution that Wales has to make to tackling the greatest emergency that our children and grandchildren will see.
As part of that, I reject entirely her idea that we don't have a functioning rail service here in Wales. It is a great shame that her party in Wales has not succeeded in persuading their Members at Westminster that the £5 billion we miss out on because of the misclassification of the high speed 2 line should come to Wales; that would help us to provide a better rail service in Wales, wouldn't it? In the meantime, just this week—just yesterday—in the Member's own region, new Stadler trains began work on the Rhymney line. There will be eight such trains in May. It is a small demonstration of the major investment that is being made in Wales in the rail service, despite the deliberate denial of the investment that people in Wales ought to have and that is being provided to people elsewhere in the United Kingdom.

I thank the First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item will be the business statement and announcement, and I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement—Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. There are four changes to this week's business. Later today, the Minister for Health and Social Services will make a statement on Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. To accommodate this, the oral statement on dental reform has been postponed. Additionally, the Business Committee has agreed to reduce the time allocated to Senedd Commission questions tomorrow in line with the number of questions tabled. Finally, the Business Committee has also agreed to change the order of debates tomorrow so that the Plaid Cymru motion is debated before the Conservative motion. Draft business for the next three weeks is set out in the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Tom Giffard AS: Can I ask for a statement, please, Trefnydd, from the Deputy Minister for arts and sport, who has just taken over responsibility for the tourism sector here in Wales? We know that when tourism sat under the economy Minister, the economy Minister proposed a tourism tax on the sector. The Government's own report said that it would cost the sector £100 million and 2,500 jobs. VisitBritain called it inadvisable, saying that it discouraged the highest spending overnight visitors from coming to Wales. So, can I ask for a statement where the Deputy Minister will outline her priorities for the tourism sector, in the hope that with a new Minister we'll see a new set of priorities?

Lesley Griffiths AC: No, that will not be happening. The policy is as set out by the previous Minister with responsibility for tourism.

Delyth Jewell AC: Families across Wales are facing an extremely uncertain near-term future as a result of the deadlock over whether Westminster will continue to help households with their energy bills, and the situation is going from bad to worse. Yesterday, I had a conversation with someone who runs a foodbank in my region, and he said that the number of people attending that foodbank had increased by 20 per cent over the past winter. The people who go there talk about the fear that they have about that April deadline. While the demand for food has increased, the donations sometimes decline because of the pressures faced by people in the area. Will the Government make a statement, please, setting out what emergency discussions it will have with Westminster to demand that the support with energy bills continues after April? If Westminster does not accede to this demand, will the statement confirm what the Welsh Government will do to fill that gap? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Minister for Social Justice does continue to have discussions with her counterpart in the UK Government. As you know, the price cap announcement will have no impact at all on energy prices for the period from April to June, because the actual prices are currently being set by the UK Government's energy price guarantee. What we would like to see is the UK Government reverse the decision to increase the EPG price from £2,500 to £3,000from 1 April, and, of course, they'll have the opportunity to do that in the budget next month.

Jenny Rathbone AC: We've all either observed or seen the steep spike in the price of vegetables and the empty shelves in our shops. The horticulture start-up and horticulture development grant schemes led last year to 19 new entrants into commercial horticulture and the expansion of 12 existing schemes. I wondered if we could have a debate in Government time on whether this is merely a short-term problem provoked by bad weather and the spike in energy costs, as described in the press, or symptomatic of an ongoing food security issue caused by our changing climate, Brexit barriers disrupting the importing of perishable goods and the domination of our food supplies by multinational companies who are mainly interested in profitability rather than ensuring supplies of nourishing food. We really do need to assess whether this demands beefing up our legislative programme or investing in more vegetables grown in Wales.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. As you know, growing the horticultural part of the agricultural sector in Wales is something I'm particularly interested in. It's a very small part of our agricultural sector, only 1 per cent. The reason I had the two schemes that you referred to was because of the demand. People were telling me they wanted to see more windows within those schemes, and it was very good to have those new 19 new entrants and to have that take-up.
There is, clearly, some widespread shortage of some fresh products: tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers. Yesterday, I was told there is a shortage of leeks, which is pretty unfortunate, I think, this week with St David's Day. I think it is the supermarkets where we are seeing shortages particularly. I think in local grocer shops, for instance, we're not seeing that shortage.
Next Monday, the Welsh Government is chairing the next inter-ministerial group with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and I've asked for food supply and food security to be put on the agenda. I know that the Minister for food and farming in the UK Government, Mark Spencer, is meeting the supermarkets this week. We haven't been invited to participate, but I've certainly asked to have a note on that to see how widespread this is.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I would like to request a statement from the Deputy Minister for Climate Change. Over two weeks ago, the T19 between Llandudno and Blaenau Ffestiniog was terminated. Employees have been left unable to access work, students are relying on private transport to get to school and residents are struggling to reach medical appointments. This morning, along with my colleague Mabon ap Gwynfor, we were in a very good meeting with bus operators, Welsh Government officials, the cabinet member from Conwy County Borough Council and Transport for Wales. But what came across loud and clear was that there seems to be an overwhelmed workforce within Transport for Wales. Criticisms were aimed at them, with bus operators trying to get this route back working again, but Transport for Wales not very good at responding. Their standard of communication with private bus operators was described as appalling, with e-mails not responded to, and that TfW actually lack experience in the bus marketplace. We now have a situation where the T19 is desperately needed to be reinstated. The response from TfW this morning was that they're going to go out to the public to see how in demand this service is. Well, I'm sure my colleague Mabon and I can actually say from our mailboxes that we know, we have data, but also the bus company who's had to suspend their bus operation has all the data. We made the point that it's not more talking we need; we need that bus reinstated. So, will the Deputy Minister now come forward with a statement and a plan for how we can actually get this bus route back firmly on its wheels? Thanks.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I don't think there's a need for an oral statement. I think you've done absolutely the right thing. I was aware of the meeting this morning. Clearly the data will help, because we certainly haven't seen patronage return to bus services post the COVID pandemic as was there pre the COVID pandemic. So, surely, if they get the data, they will be able to see, and if you say the data is there, then I think that will enable them to look at whether this service should be reinstated as quickly as possible.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: May I ask for a statement from the health Minister on the issue of charging for delivering prescriptions from pharmacies? It's entirely reasonable to charge in a scenario where an individual can't be bothered to collect a prescription, but I've been contacted by some people in my region who, because of their medical condition, can't go and fetch their prescriptions, and have now found that they are required to pay for that. In the first instance, many of them can't afford to do so, and the inevitable upshot of that is that they will not, therefore, be receiving the medicines that they need. And that, of course, undermines the policy that we're all proud of, that prescriptions are free of charge in Wales. So, I think we need some clarity from the Minister on what the Government expects from pharmacies: do the pharmacists or the individuals trying to access prescriptions need support? And I i think we need more consistency across Wales, because in some areas they charge, and in others they don't.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I will certainly ask the Minister to provide some clarity via a written statement. You're absolutely right that the whole point of having that policy of free prescriptions is to keep people well and to make sure that those who are employed are able to stay in employment. If we do have this disparity, I think you're quite right; you don't want to see that inconsistency or a postcode lottery, where you have some areas charging. So, I will certainly ask the health Minister to bring forward a written statement with that clarity.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: May I ask for a statement from the health Minister on an update to the computer system within the national health service? I have a cancer patient in Dinas Mawddwy who's had to go to have initial treatment and gone to see a doctor locally in Dolgellau, and then had to go to hospital in Bronglais in Aberystwyth, and then in turn down to Glangwili in Carmarthen, and then back up to Ysbyty Gwynedd in Bangor, and then over to Llanidloes, which is part of the Powys health board, and now has to go to Clatterbridge near Liverpool, I believe. And what he's found is that every one of these providers, the different hospitals, aren't communicating with each other, and they don't share notes; they're not ready for the patient's arrival, they don't know that patient's history, because the ICT systems don't communicate, and there's no easy way to share that information. So, can we have a statement to see what the system is, and what plans are in place to ensure that that system is properly integrated in Wales to avoid this happening in the future? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: It's an ongoing piece of work to make sure that computers talk to computers and health boards talk to health boards here in Wales. It is absolutely vital that patients don't have to repeat their story every time they go to a different hospital, for instance. I know there were some difficulties between Wales and England, but as far as I was aware those systems should be able to talk to each other within Wales.

Thank you, Trefnydd.

3. Statement by the Minister for Economy: The Innovation Strategy

The next item is the statement by the Minister for Economy on the innovation strategy. I call on the Minister to make his statement—Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I welcome this opportunity to update Members on 'Wales innovates', our new innovation strategy, which has been co-developed with the Ministers for health and social services, education and Welsh Language and, of course, climate change. It was officially launched yesterday. Firstly, I'd like to acknowledge and thank the Plaid Cymru designated Members and their leader in the development of the strategy, which is all the stronger for their work and input and fulfils a commitment in the co-operation agreement.
We've developed this strategy following more than a year of independent research and extensive engagement across Wales, including a statutory public consultation where over 160 submissions were received from industry, academia, the public sector and individual citizens. We have put developing a culture of innovation at the heart of this strategy and across every Government department. That means we're committed to working together to achieve a vision that will create a stronger and more resilient economy, better educational outcomes—particularly in tertiary education and research—effective, sustainable health and social care, with better services for vulnerable people, and an ability to respond to the separate emergencies of climate and nature in everything that we do. We intend for innovation to be a major enabler for Walesthat will deliver outcomes like better health, better jobs and prosperity for all. We want citizens and communities to feel the benefits, regardless of where they are in Wales, but we have to do this in the face of a new and evolving funding landscape.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Vaughan Gething AC: We know that the traditional source of much of Wales’s investment in research and development—the former EU structural funds—is no more. We know that we will have less money to invest, and less control over how it is invested. Engagement with the EU over the Horizon Europe programme remains unresolved. But we do have positive relationships with EU regions through our ongoing involvement with networks like the Vanguard Initiative with European regional governments.A strategy that is genuinely collaborative and points the way to a different approach is needed now more than ever. So, we are adopting a mission-based approach, which will require recognition and discipline from our stakeholders that we have to priotitise some areas of research and innovation more than others. If we recognise that we can’t support all research, we can prioritise work that is translational. But we can only succeed if all the innovation stakeholders in Wales work together in the collaborative way that we set out in the strategy.
Our four main themes of education, economy, health and well-being, climate and nature will allow us to explore cutting-edge opportunities; to enable us to compete more effectively for UK and international funding and investment; to focus on our evidence-based areas of strength, and to make a contribution for Wales that also adds to the stated UK vision for innovation.Our strategy makes a firm commitment to driving up investment from the UK Government and beyond, which is even more crucial in the world of post-EU funding. I look forward to working with UK innovation agencies, where we have shared ambitions, and to seeing their stated intention made real to significantly increase research, development and innovation investment outside the south-east of England.
We will also have a new approach to funding. Our innovation support will no longer be restricted to businesses and research organisations. It will be open to any established organisation wishing to engage and invest in research, development and innovation. That includes the third sector, local authorities and health boards.By supporting an innovative and entrepreneurial mindset across all sectors, we can approach problems in new ways through the eyes of different and diverse people. We call for equality, both in terms of demographic and regional investment and impact. I want all of our universities, our businesses, our public bodies, and our citizens to collaborate even more closely to create an environment that turns research questions into real-world answers, and inspires our next generation of students, scientists, researchers and entrepreneurs.
As a Government, we understand that our future is inextricably linked to the education of our young people and our ability to embrace a tech-driven entrepreneurial economy. Our new curriculum will help to nurture entrepreneurial skills within our children and young people throughout their educational journey. We can harness the talent, enthusiasm and incredible potential of our young people who, in the future, will not only contribute to the Welsh economy, but will make a real impact with and for people’s lives.We’ll also invest in skills within our workforce, in digital, to service the latest industrial revolution, and in net zero skills. Our plans for these are set out in the net zero skills plan. Embedding net zero skills, in partnership with our industry bodies and delivery organisations, is key to delivering against our climate and nature mission.
Tackling climate change and protecting nature should be at the forefront of our choices in all areas. We need innovation to transform the food, energy and transportation systems in Wales. We also need innovation in other areas to be carried out in a carbon-neutral and resource-efficient way. We’ll require organisations receiving support to measure and understand their impact, and we’ll look to help them on that journey. We will use innovation as a tool to improve our health and care services, prioritising action to help further tackle delayed transfers of care, improve provision across primary, community, emergency and planned care, as well as in cancer and mental health services.
I’m pleased that our vision for innovation will now turn to further action. These will shortly be pulled together in a practical delivery plan. This will be a living document, setting out specific goals, actions, milestones, and it will be monitored and refined to measure impact. In an ever-changing funding landscape, we’ll need to revisit our progress and keep an open mind for what we hope will be different and better opportunities. This strategy is an exemplar of how the Welsh Government’s approach to innovation can benefit the people, environment and businesses of Wales. I look forward to reporting to Members on progress.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank the Minister for his statement this afternoon? I'm very pleased to hear that this strategy has now been published—this document—and that there will be a delivery plan that is going to sit alongside it. You said, Minister, in your remarks there, that the delivery plan will be published shortly, and it would be useful, I think, for us all to have a timescale by which you expect to be able to publish that.
You didn't refer in your statement to the central innovation team that the strategy document refers to, which appears to me to be quite central to wanting to drive the delivery of this agenda forward across the Welsh Government's different departments and policy areas. That team is going to be critical, I think, to the success of the implementation, and it's going to need to have some teeth and resources. So, can you tell us who and how that team will be made up of, and what resources you're going to put in place behind that team, in order to make sure that it does the job of delivery? It would also be useful, Minister, I think, if you could tell us whether there's going to be any external presence on that team, or whether it's going to be a wholly in-house sort of operation. I do think that having an arm's-length organisation in order to hold the Government to account can sometimes be useful. And it would be helpful to know whether there's any external expertise that you might be able to bring in.
You've referred to the four different specific mission areas, if you like: education, economy, health and well-being, and climate and nature. And obviously, we do have a changing new curriculum. I know that the Welsh Government has done some work trying to promote the digital skills agenda and engagement with STEM subjects, but I cannot see in the new curriculum specifically how innovation is necessarily promoted.I think it would be useful to have some more information on how you see that being embedded in the new curriculum, because I personally don't see that sufficiently emphasised enough at the moment.
In addition to the strategy document, I know that the Welsh Government's going to be expanding its offer to micro, small and medium-sized businesses with some funding and advice. You made reference to the fact, in the launch yesterday, that there will be a new service launched later in the year for those small, micro and medium-sized businesses. Can you tell us whether a launch date has actually been set, and what you're going to do in order to make sure that people are aware of the support that they can get in those smaller businesses, in order that they can access it, and we can all see this innovation flow through into our economy?
Now, I'm very pleased to see the references in the document to a more equal Wales, and that the strategy recognises that there needs to be a fairer geographical distribution of investment in innovation activities. That's music to my years, particularly in north Wales, where we often feel overlooked by Welsh Government investment. But obviously, there are partners in different parts of Wales who the Welsh Government will need to engage with to deliver on this important agenda—you've got regional partnerships, you've got local authorities, you've got business groups, sometimes the chambers of commerce in particular areas. Can you tell us what role they will have in ensuring the roll-out of this vision nationwide, to make sure that there is that local delivery element in addition to the national framework that you've set out?
I'm very pleased to see the emphasis as well on health and well-being. We all know that the NHS in Wales is lagging behind some of its counterparts elsewhere in the UK, in terms of the use of some of the digital technology that's available. We heard reference earlier on today in terms of simple things, like electronic prescriptions, which we don't have in Wales but people have the benefit of elsewhere. We saw during the pandemic there were huge leaps forward in terms of engagement with technology in order to address some of the problems that could arise with the distance that people might have to travel in order to access appointments. But one of the things that the Welsh NHS Confederation raised in response to the draft strategy was that they said that there needed to be more visible links between patient safety, quality and outcomes in the strategy going forward. Have you now addressed those concerns? And if so, can you tell us how you have addressed them?
And then, finally, just in relation to this issue of EU funding, as you will know, my colleague, Paul Davies, has often referred to the fact that we need to get on and implement the recommendations of Professor Graeme Reid's review of government funded research and innovation, and he's not the only one. Many other stakeholders have also said precisely the same. So, can you tell us whether the Welsh Government will finally listen to that chorus of voices that is out there and finally get to grips and make a commitment with implementing the review's recommendations? I think that people want nothing more and nothing less.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the long series of questions. I won't test the Deputy Presiding Officer's patience by giving a long answer to each of, I think the 10 different areas. Look, on the action and delivery plan, I'm expecting that that will be provided in a matter of months, and that should help us, as it's supposed to be a living document, to make sure that we do have milestones and measures within that to go alongside the broader missions. We've made choices in this strategy. Look at those areas where we've got real strengths that already exist in Wales and in different parts of Wales—north, south, east and west—but also look at potential areas for strength in the future. Now, that's about how we look to build on what we can do and what we're really good at here in Wales, rather than trying to do a bit of everything, and so, you'll see that as we go forward with the delivery plan that you've referred to.
Now, I'll try to deal with some of your points about other outcomes as well. We want to see outcomes and see things translated. The reviews we'll undertake at one, three and five years—the first-year review is really important to understand that we are still making the progress that we set out in the mission, but, also, because a number of the funding pieces are uncertain still at this point in time. There's a point about whether the UK Government will really deliver on its mission to use a significant amount of headline budget on innovation to make sure that it doesn't just go into the golden triangle around Oxbridge and a couple of universities in Scotland. It will also be important to see what's happening with the relatively confused landscape—I'll be as polite as I can—in post-EU funds, and, actually, there's policy confusion in there as well with things that are contradictory. We're going to look to try to have a more coherent approach, and we've been working with a range of people in doing that in the run-up to the launch of this strategy as well. That includes businesses being involved in that, it includes higher and further education, and it includes a range of people already engaged. There's also an unfinished piece of work in the UK Government and there's a review that Sir Paul Nurse has been doing—that will have an impact on the funding landscape and some priorities that we'll need to be cognisant of as well.
I do expect that, when we get to the innovation team that is based in my department, and their work not only to co-ordinate what takes place within the Government, but their work with external stakeholders as well—. Because, often, in a country the size of Wales, people are looking for the Welsh Government to carry on with some leadership to help hold the ring, but to draw in those other stakeholders, which is what we've already been doing. But we're also, though, looking to have a joint delivery plan, a joint action plan, with Innovate UK, and that's the first time that we've been able to do that, to secure agreement on that, and they're looking to do that on the basis of the strategy we've launched today. So, we've tried to have a coherent approach to what we're going to do. That should help us with future funding streams.
In the new curriculum—I just don't accept the Member's characterisation. I think, within the areas of learning and entrepreneurship and innovation, they are there, and it's about how we build on that practically in the work that we do. Much of what business says at this point in time, when they look at the future with all the risks and challenges and opportunities they have, they talk lots about labour and skills and about how we need to be able to get to people not just at 16, 17, 18 and beyond, but actually earlier, to keep those minds open to potential careers that exist. That's not just a point about skills; it is about how we value and embed a culture of innovation and challenge. It was fascinating yesterday, at the launch, to have a range of young people in different parts of Wales saying what they are already doing in looking at innovative ways, so they are thinking about problem solving to go through that,and they're not just—even though Jack Sargeant is in the room—engineers; there is a range of other people thinking about how to deal with challenges in the future.
And, look, when it comes to the launch of the micro and SME funding, you expect it to happen within the coming months. Again, I will make clear when that fund is being launched. Members will know and will look to go to work with stakeholders. I doubt, sadly, it'll be a headline on television news when we launch that fund, but the people who need to will know about that and the business networks we have are how we're going to be able to try to promote that. And, obviously, for Members from all sides, it would be helpful if they could promote it, because you will all have constituents who will be interested in when that fund comes to launch.
We definitely care about innovation in all areas across Wales. We've invested lots in innovation in north Wales in a whole range of areas. I was talking with Siemens earlier today, and, with the investment we've done with them in Llanberis, they're engaged in not just manufacturing but really interesting, innovative research as well. So, that is something that has a reach in every part of Wales. And it's one of the points we've made to the UK Government, so they don't perceive research, science, development and innovation as something that takes place in Cardiff and Newport in the semiconductor cluster; we have had to tell them that there are many more areas of strength across Wales, and Sam Kurtz mentioned earlier today the work of IBERS in Aberystwyth. I should say, Llywydd, that's my former undergraduate institution; there's no bias there, obviously.
Finally, though, on the Reid review, we just need to be honest: we're not going to be able to deliver on what the Reid review suggested we would do, because the funding realities at that time have been completely capsized by not just our leaving the European Union but by the failure to deal, the failure to honour the very clear promises that were made on not a penny being lost to Wales. Our budget has taken real pressure. We're going to be talking about the final budget in the coming weeks, and within that you know very well there is not extra money looking for a home. Our challenge is actually how we prioritise and deal with the things we need to do, the opportunities we can take up, rather than all the things that Members across different parties would want to do. So, I'm not going to engage in a dishonest conversation and pretend we're still in the same position as when the Reid review was published. And Conservative Members need to take some responsibility for the fact that more money has been taken out of Wales and we now have less say over less money.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you to the Minister for his statement.

Luke Fletcher AS: As the Minister rightly pointed out, our departure from the EU has had a detrimental impact on our ability to access funding. What was it, 'Not a penny less, not a power lost'? Now, at least, the innovation strategy launch allows us to have a shared mission across party lines that joins our attention to making Wales a dynamic nation for the future.
Now, innovation strategies across Europe have seen success and they aren't a new idea. Finland, in 1967, established Sitra, which is a body committed to innovating, regardless of which party is in power. And within 10 years, Sitra achieved education reform, which just so happens to be the same structure that we, as well as much of the world, have followed. So, there is tremendous potential for a Wales innovation strategy like Finland's to not just impact domestic policy but to influence international change as well.
Now, for Wales, we have an abundance of green energy potential. If we do this right, this innovation strategy has the capability to not only revitalise parts of Wales that have—and still do—experienced economic stagnation but to also place Wales as a leading nation in green innovation and policies. So, to that end, how does the Minister see the strategy feeding into supporting community-owned energy projects? It's important that the strategy links in with many of the projects up and running around Wales already, but also with those that are still in the works. We know already that community energy projects often find it difficult to get off the ground.I would also ask: how does the innovation strategy factor in the need for a just transition as we head towards a greener economy?
Now, by establishing well-defined goals within the strategy, policy makers will have the opportunity to not just influence green economic growth but to also influence the direction, the impact and the purpose of each goal. And, on the point of economic growth, how will this strategy support and assess requests not just from local businesses and SMEs but also social partnerships and co-operatives that might want to conduct research and development but simply haven't got the capital? There lies a way of developing truly homegrown innovation.
Now, although we look forward to future innovations, we must also acknowledge the recent past. The COVID-19 pandemic has undoubtedly had a negative impact on the progress of innovations across Wales, and as a result we must also understand that the mission areas such as the health and care system need critical attention, and we need to act swiftly to remedy this. So, I would be interested to understand how Government might prioritise or be flexible with the missions within this strategy.
Looking at another international comparison, the Research Council of Norway has five core strategic areas. Now, these five strategic areas are intrinsically linked and cannot be achieved without societal change, both within and outside of Norway. As a result, societal change is at the heart of innovation strategy as a whole. Now, if Wales as a society has not bought into policies, then it will be very difficult for them to succeed. A key requirement for success is therefore to have actors and a variety of stakeholders with sufficient knowledge and resources to help connect and embed innovations and novel practices within existing structures and institutions. So, to that end, this will of course be key to achieving the four missions set out, and I'd be interested in hearing the Government's work in bringing those stakeholders together to date.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the questions and comments.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the questions.

Vaughan Gething AC: I heard much about about Finland yesterday, the leader of Plaid Cymru referred to Finland at length in his contribution, and of course we have taken an interest in the way that other countries, including Finland, have used innovation as a tool for national improvement and in a range of policy areas. Finland and other Scandinavian countries have had an explicit influence on the way that we've developed policy—not just the foundation phase, but many others as well—and the way that we seek to use our natural assets for the future of the country as well.
I think that goes into the points you were making about green innovation. If you think about the four missions, climate, nature and the economy, there's a really obvious overlap in this area, and it's one of the areas we spent lots of time talking about in this Chamber, not just about the unresolved issues around free ports, but about what we think we can do. With the large energy generation projects around floating offshore wind, there will be more innovation to come, and actually we've seen, in the Deputy Presiding Officer's own constituency, some of that innovation in a range of turbine technology and in different parts of Wales, and some of that could come back to the point about community generation as well, because there is something for us to learn about where we've been successful and where we haven't been as successful as we want to be, and it's also something where I think there's more room for more co-ops. Much of the community generation that has been successful has actually been co-operative, ballot-backed developments as well, and we have a really vibrant co-operative community in Wales. You'd expect me to say that as a Labour and Co-op member, but lots of that innovation does take place. The way we're looking to open up, as I set out in my statement, the ability to access some of that smart funding, should mean there is more opportunity for those organisations, not less, in the way they can access innovation spend in the future, and there are a range of services available to them: Cwmpas Cymru, very obviously, but also Business Wales too.
All of this does take in your point about the just transition. We'll talk about it more in the next statement as well. The transition we wish to make isn't to leave people behind, but how we see innovation improving the lives of people—people whether they're living in communities and the services that they may receive, or indeed people in the world of work and beyond. I want to give you the reassurance that the just transition is something that is a regular feature in the minds of Ministers about the choices we make and about the fact that there's a lot more disruption to come in the future. That can be an opportunity as well as a real risk for the people that we represent.
On your point about COVID-19 innovation, it did prevent a range of areas and innovations that were in train, work that was happening—much of that was interrupted. But I think there's an important point to make here, that actually, because of COVID-19, we had to innovate in a whole range of areas, and we did. There's the way in which, for example, the Welsh ambulance service were able to think again about how they could re-prepare vehicles to be able to go out. That had to happen and, because of the forced innovation, we've ended up with the better system that we have in place now, and, in a range of other areas, the innovation that was forced has actually led people to make different choices. Sometimes it's about products. Sometimes it's about services. Sometimes it's the way that people work. If you look at the innovation that has taken place just in terms of the way we work on a hybrid basis, not just in this place, but it's commonplace in the world of work, where it's possible to do so, three years ago we would not have thought that's the way that people would expect to work in an office environment, for example, today. So, there's much more innovation that is to come. It's not just about, if you like, the obvious people-in-white-coats end of innovation. Much of the innovation that improves our lives come from when we rethink the way we approach the world and the way that we work as well, and then the consistent application of it. And that's one of the things we are talking to our stakeholders about, because sometimes it's about the new and the difficult things, the cutting-edge part of it. At other times, it's about how we translate what we know works much more consistently and effectively. So, we have a new discovery challenge and opportunity. We then also have an implementation and application challenge, which is just as much an issue in the private sector as it is in public services. But, I can honestly say stakeholders are very positive about where we've got to now, and, in the next phase, I look forward to keeping them on board with us.

Mike Hedges AC: I very much welcome this statement. If you study successful nations and regions, you find three common themes—the three legs of a successful economy. Innovation, research and development is leg 1, entrepreneurship is leg 2, and high-quality education and highly educated graduates is leg 3. I've got two questions. How are the Welsh Government working with universities to support research and innovation? What financial support is the Welsh Government giving to support testing and patent applications? Without the patent, the benefit of innovation is lost, and we know in Britain, quite often, we've innovated and other countries have actually turned it into a very successful industry.
We've had mention of Finland, which I think has had great successes, but Finland also gives you a warning. Nokia were the biggest makers of mobile phones in the world. You can't buy a Nokia phone today. You can get it wrong as well.
Can I just throw out three areas that you perhaps can think about? Cambridge, Silicon Valley in California, and Mannheim—these are successful areas. Perhaps we can learn from them as well.

Vaughan Gething AC: On your final point, part of our challenge is that the three areas you mention have had new ideas, they've had a conference of lots of people, and capital has then gone into lots of those new ideas and it's been kept there. Part of our challenge in the way innovation funding works in the UK is that Oxbridge is one of the areas in the golden triangle, with some London institutions, where it continues to crowd in more funding and investment. Our challenge is not just to say, 'We want to stop money going there.' Actually, we're going to need to see more money going to other parts of the UK as well, rather than a reductive competition that simply takes money out of what is already successful. And that's difficult for us, actually, but it's the mission that the UK Government have set when they've increased, I think by over £20 billion, the innovation money they're prepared to spend. That's a good thing. You don't often hear me say good things about the UK Government, but it's a good thing they've been prepared to do that. They've then got to make sure it isn't just about geographic equity in where it's invested in the rest of the UK, but that they recognise the areas of very real strength and opportunity that exist in other parts of the UK, and it's also the consistency of acting in those three areas you've mentioned as well that have been consistent.
I know very well the Member's warning about Nokia. I used to have a Nokia phone, as indeed did all of my friends at one point in time, but none of us do now.
On patents, it's one of the things we want to work on with a range of people to make sure they have got patents. In my former life as a health Minister, I was really interested in what we were doing in life sciences not just to change and improve treatment outcomes and care outcomes for people, but in making sure that people protected their intellectual property. It's one of the risks, actually, for some of the free trade agreements that are being done, to make sure we do have consistent rules that are enforceable in all countries about intellectual property protection as well. And it's certainly something that we do talk to, through our advice services to business and innovators.
And on your point about universities, there's a warning from your local institution about what's happening with the change in funding. Swansea University have been clear that good, high-quality jobs are going because of the change in funding. Now, we've deliberately worked with the university sector. The vice-chancellor of Swansea takes a lead role on some of these areas, on how we're looking to make sure they're alongside us. And part of my challenge to them has been about what universities will do in the future about gaining access to UK funding sources, because, even in the past, before the non-keeping of promises on replacement EU funds, we still wanted our university sector to be better at gaining access to UK funding competition as well. Now there's a real imperative to do so, and that's part of the conversation we've had.
But also, for the higher education sector—further education has a role in innovation as well; I'm not saying it doesn't, but the question was on higher education—part of it is their collective understanding of where they recognise the sector is strong and that there will be different strengths in different institutions, so that we don't have universities competing to knock over each other and say, 'Actually, there are six institutions claiming to be world-leading in the same area in Wales', because we know that's unlikely to be true, but to have a coherent profile from them that will lead into the missions as well, and actually that has informed the areas of strength that we've identified. So, we're in a good place in our relationship with higher education, and I look forward to that being the case through the delivery of this strategy and the delivery plan.

Sioned Williams MS: I'd like to declare an interest, namely that my husband is employed by Swansea University.

Sioned Williams MS: I would like to talk a little bit in more detail about how the strategy will mitigate the impact of the withdrawal of UK structural funds on Welsh universities specifically. You just mentioned the warning that we've had from Swansea University that up to 240 researchers are facing redundancy in that institution alone. I'm sure you'd agree that redundancies on this scale—and many of them are early-years researchers—would fatally undermine confidence in the research sector in South Wales West and across Wales. Here are the words of one of the researchers who has already been made redundant from one of the programmes. He said, 'I could see so much being achieved each week. Beyond the measurable outcomes, the project was a conduit for connectivity and the development of translational expertise', something you've referred to today as being so key to this strategy and is so important, of course, in the development of the research and technology sector in a small country. So, I'd like to know, Minister, are you developing any medium- and long-term solutions as a part of this strategy, and will you explore short-term bridging measures in the meantime that could perhaps include a match-funded package to stabilise employment and underpin R&D in our universities to stem this loss of intellectual capital?

Vaughan Gething AC: I wouldn't say it'll fatally undermine confidence in the sector. I don't think it'll kill off everything that exists, but it will cause real damage—damage that is avoidable as well. But the problem is that choices that have been made at a UK level take that money out of the sector, and the deliberate design of the shared prosperity fund in particular was to exclude higher education from that. And if we were having this debate in England, they'd have exactly the same complaints about how they've been carved out of it, and it's a real problem; it's a real and undeniable problem, and you don't normally hear higher education vice chancellors talking about the fact that hundreds of well-paid jobs that we want more of, not less of, in Wales and in every region of the UK, are going because of that funding choice.
Now, the UK Government are aware of that, and, in the conversations I've had directly with George Freeman, the science Minister in the UK Government, they're aware there's a problem, and the challenge is that different parts of the UK Government are not connected with each other in the choices they're all making. I think it'll be too late for some of those people, I'm afraid, and, even with all of the ways that we have tried to work alongside people, the reality is our budgets only stretch so far and we can't fill in all of the damage that has been done. It's why we're looking for a stable relationship with the UK Government, and one where there's honesty about how money will be spent, and to move away from some of the damaging and short-sighted competitive processes and just some honesty about keeping their promises on the money. We will be clear about how we're using the money that we have; we will be working with the university sector on how we use that money on the missions and how we're going to move to look forward, and how that has a genuine translational impact into Welsh communities now and in the future. There are still opportunities, but we could do so much more if we weren't starting from a position where damage has been done with foresight and knowledge of what was to come.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Minister. I was really pleased to read the strategy showing how we're seeking to embed innovation across all aspects of Government; it's a very welcome approach, and I think it shows why innovation is vital both for our economy and for other sectors as well.
I was very interested to read the section on the circular economy and on the environmental impact of the foundational economy in particular, which you'll know is an area of great interest to me. From my discussions with businesses in Cynon Valley, I know that many of these smaller, family-run businesses are very keen to invest in, for example, renewable energy sources, or more modern energy-efficient machinery, but this can be really expensive. So, how can we better support these businesses to innovate and modernise?
My second question is around the strategy's rhetoric for creating critical mass clusters for innovation. I understand that completely, and it might sound like a bit of a paradox, but I also think it's important that we take a whole-Wales approach to that as well. I'll give an example: a business I've mentioned here in this Chamber before in my constituency is Pontus Research Ltd, who do some really cutting-edge, world-leading work on the aquaculture sector, which is not something you'd expect to find on an industrial estate in Hirwaun. So, I note the commitment in another section of the strategy that, quote, 'nobody or place', end quote, is left behind. And so, bearing in mind that example I've given to you—and I know there'll be many others—I'd be keen for details on how Welsh Government will work to really embed these opportunities across Wales, providing support but also proactively reaching outwards to businesses as well.

Vaughan Gething AC: Great. Thank you. Thank you for the two questions. I think, on your last point first, there's a recognition that clusters aren't just geographic; the clusters of industry sectors and how we draw people together and the connectivity between them as well—. You're right, you wouldn't expect aquaculture in the Cynon Valley necessarily to be a big deal, but it's a big opportunity for Wales when you think about what we already do and what we can do better, and there is really interesting research on that up in Bangor as well. So, it's about how we connect those people up. That's why the point about how we connect—one of those jargon phrases—the innovation ecosystem. But understanding who's doing what where, that's partly our role in the Government; it's also about how we work with business and other organisations to understand where that excellence exists in different parts of Wales and then to make it easier for people to know who they are and who and where they can collaborate with people as well. And, actually, Members do have a really important role in that, in understanding what works really well in their own constituency or region, and then how to promote that across the country, and, you know, the relationships with Ministers in being able to point out that there are opportunities to do more in that.
It's also about how they work with Business Wales as the front door to all of the advice and support, and to direct people to where they can get that support as well. And that also links into your question, I think, about the circular economy and the foundational economy, how we keep more money local. But there's real innovation that takes place there, and it comes back to my point about that some things already work really well but aren't translated into every single business. So, it's what already works, how do you apply it in your own business. And, actually, one of the things, in terms of moving forward, is the Development Bank of Wales and the green business loans scheme they work, because it deals with exactly your point: how do you get more energy efficient, how do you reduce your carbon footprint and reduce your bottom line? It isn't just that loans are available from £1,000 upwards; it's also the consultancy support and advice that exists for those businesses. If you do have businesses that want to improve the way they work and are thinking about energy efficiency to reduce their bottom line as well, definitely go to Business Wales and consider the green business loans scheme that I'm delighted we launched just two weeks ago with the Development Bank of Wales.

Finally, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, thank you for your statement today and for publishing the innovation strategy. I was particularly keen to read the section on and the focus given to innovation assets. Now, we have many of these in existence around Wales, and they're proving to be fabulous magnets for investment in many communities. One that is currently in development, of course, is the Global Centre for Rail Excellence, and, when it opens in 2025, it will be one of the finest of its kind in western Europe. Indeed, this £400 million programme of work will involve the construction of two test loops and it will be the UK's first-ever net zero in operation railway. Minister, how do you envisage these innovation assets contributing to community cohesion, to prosperity and to innovation in general, not just in the areas where they are based but more widely across Wales, across the UK and around the world? And how would you assess your relationship so far with UK Government Ministers in regard to ensuring that we get as much research, development and innovation pulled away from the golden triangle that you've identified today and which swallows up such a huge proportion of UK Research and Innovation funding? Diolch.

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the questions. Your point about innovation assets and the example of GCRE, the Global Centre for Rail Excellence, is exactly what I had in my mind, about something where the Welsh Government took a lead, made a choice and saw a gap where something did not exist and we had the potential to create something in Wales, and that's actually levered in money directly from the UK Government, and there'll be private sector money coming in as well. And it will not just be an interesting innovation experiment, but Birmingham, which has Birmingham University, which is one of the leading universities, if not the leading university, on rail innovation in the UK, they're interested; they want to be part of that. We can expect there to be really good jobs in a rural part of Wales directly being created because of the way that we have, as a Government, selected that site with a real gap. And that will produce not just opportunities within the UK, but right across Europe there'll be people, I think, who will want to come to that innovation centre. It means there's more development that will take place not just directly in the rail sector, and not just an opportunity potentially for a museum there, but, actually, because you're going to look at other accommodation needs alongside that, you should have different opportunities, if we think about the environment that it exists in as well.
So, I'm very keen that we see each of these areas as opportunities to improve the economy in that area, and also to add to the economy of Wales as a whole. And it's all about the story we want to tell about Wales, to not just shout about our own successes but with other parts of the world to see that these things really do happen in Wales and they make a practical difference, as you say, not just for Wales but in other parts of the UK and beyond. And in my conversations with UK Ministers, they're very practical and constructive with a number of them when it comes to what we think we can do, and, thus far, the science Ministers—plural—that I have dealt with have been open minded about recognising they don't have a full picture of where there's innovation excellence in Wales.
The challenge is the consistency in action, and, whilst I'd like to see a different UK Government entirely, I'd welcome a period of stability for at least a few months, which we haven't had for a number of years, because the chopping and the changing of Ministers makes it really difficult to get a consistent answer, and we'll then need to see if the budget in just a few weeks' time actually follows through on the stated good intentions of Ministers involved in the innovation area. It's actually somewhere where we could add to what we're doing with a more grown-up and pragmatic relationship, in direct contrast to what's happened on shared prosperity. This should be an area where there are real strengths not just for Wales, but for the wider UK as well.

4. Statement by the Minister for Economy: Net-zero Skills Strategy

Item 4 this afternoon is the second statement by the Minister for Economy, net-zero skills strategy, and I call on the Minister, Vaughan Gething, once again.

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm pleased to publish the net-zero skills action plan today. The plan is an important first step in understanding the role of skills in making a just transition to net zero. Our net-zero ambitions include a better, fairer and greener future for us all. Skills are a key enabler to deliver on these ambitions, to ensure the transition is fair and that the most vulnerable in society are not unfairly burdened with the costs of change.
The challenge to meet our net-zero commitment is huge, and our future skills needs will require a collaborative approach across the whole economy. In shaping the plan, we have worked cross-Government, with external stakeholders and key partners to gain a picture of the net-zero skills landscape against the eight emission sectors set out in Net Zero Wales. This plan is the start of a journey. We do not pretend to have all the answers yet. The plan prioritises seven key areas and contains 36 actions. It sets out this Government’s commitment to support the just transition to net zero through a more co-ordinated approach.
Understanding the current skills position and future skills needs for each emission sector in Wales is mixed. Some sectors are further ahead in their direction of travel than others, and there is a level of confusion in some sectors on how net zero will impact the future needs of their workforce. As we transition to a net-zero economy, the skills needs will evolve and become clearer. However, in the meantime, uncertainty will mean the picture will not be static and we recognise that further work is needed to understand the changing skills landscape.
So, we'll start by looking at the skills landscape in more granular detail. l'll undertake a public consultation on the sector-specific skills requirements. This will set out our current understanding of the skills position for each sector, what skills are needed in the short, medium and long term, and how to achieve this with continued partnership work. The outcome of the consultation will support the development of a skills road map for each emission sector, which will support the development and investment of skills in the future.
Our engagement with stakeholders has suggested that there is a level of confusion and a lack of understanding amongst some businesses, employees and school leavers about what is meant by green or net-zero jobs and the skills required. We need to build a shared understanding of net-zero skills across Wales. We have, to date, interpreted net-zero skills broadly as the skills needed to support each sector on their path to net zero across the whole economy. As a result, all jobs have the potential to make a contribution to help meet our net-zero commitment. There is a strong and urgent need to narrow the definition and to gain a common understanding of the jobs and skills required with a clear flow of information between Government, public and private sectors and employees on the skills needed. We will use the outcome of the Office for National Statistics’ consultation and their upcoming definition of a 'green job' to help inform the definition for Wales.
We need to grow a skilled and diverse workforce and create quality jobs to meet our net-zero commitments in what is a rapidly changing economy. The skills challenges of our workforce are very real now. We need to respond to the growing demand from different sectors for more people to have net-zero skills. Without taking further actions our own net-zero commitments will not be achieved. Supporting people to upskill in existing sectors and to use their existing skills and qualifications will be key to help transition within sectors.
That is why we have invested an additional £10 million in personal learning accounts this year to help upskill employed individuals to help meet our skills gaps, to help secure their own futures. Within this, an extra £1.5 million has been allocated to the green personal learning account pilot that I launched in October. This will provide a total investment of £3.5 million this year to directly support skills in the construction, energy, manufacturing and engineering sectors.
However, it is clear that we are not starting from scratch. There are many successes across Wales, some of which are contained within the plan as examples. These show the positive impacts and benefits that can be made by delivering change and investing in skills. Working with industry bodies and key partners, we will continue to explore opportunities for new and innovative approaches to grow our future workforce.
We recognise that we need to strengthen the skills system to meet the rapidly growing skills demand from across all sectors. Collaboration between further and higher education, apprenticeships, wider learning provision, trade unions and industry will help us provide the right offer and progression for learners in a more co-ordinated way.
As we know, apprenticeships raise skills levels, help to drive greater productivity, and create more resilient communities. We are exploring options on how the apprenticeship frameworks can further meet our net-zero commitments, but building on these strong foundations, we will look to strengthen the offer of short courses to supplement and enhance net-zero skills for young apprentices in new and emerging technologies and techniques with our personal learning accounts.
We recognise that we need to promote opportunities for early years and young people to realise their potential. Our children and young people are obviously a key part of the future workforce, and we must motivate, engage and equip them to effectively understand their career opportunities in the changing world of work. The new Curriculum for Wales roll-out is a great opportunity to align our priorities. This plan sets out actions to work with partners to promote engagement to build confidence and knowledge of the world of work.
We know that we can’t tackle the challenge alone, so cross-Government and partnership working will be the cornerstone of our approach. As we move into the implementation phase, we will continue that partnership approach across the whole economy, looking to draw on the strength provided by our social partnership way of working. Delivering a just transition should mean that no-one is left behind, so we would encourage individuals to be part of the conversation, to promote a positive culture that champions fairness and equality in the way that we drive change forward.
Our long-term plan remains to deliver a fairer, stronger, greener Wales for all of us, and invest in the skills to do so. I look forward to working with Members across the Chamber to deliver on this net-zero skills action plan, and of course businesses, trade unions and other partners outside of this Chamber.

Darren Millar AC: Can I thank the Minister for an advance copy of his statement? As you’ll know, we on these benches have been calling for you to bring forward your net-zero skills strategy for many months, so we’re finally glad that it has been published. Because you're quite right: we have a huge job to do if we’re to get to net zero by 2050, and we have many skills that our workforce needs to be able to get usover the line.
It never ceases to surprise me how quickly things that were once rare, such as solar panels on people's roofs, are adopted by people, particularly when energy prices have been so high. The skills shortage just in terms of that doesn't compare to the huge shortage that we're going to have in terms of the wider renewable energy commitments that we've got—to be able to install new wind capacity, both on and offshore, and, of course, to realise our ambitions to ensure that we take advantage of the energy that can be produced by the tides around the coast of Wales too.
Now, clearly, you've mentioned lots of things in your strategy. We certainly welcome the extra investment that's going into people's personal learning accounts. It's important that we promote those with employers because of the benefits that they can bring to their workforce as well as the individuals themselves, who will, hopefully, take advantage of those new resources.
Yet again, you've referred to the new curriculum and the opportunities that that presents. We know that climate change is something that features in that curriculum, and, hopefully, that will energise our young people to look for opportunities and careers in areas that can help address the climate change challenge. But, we need to do so by taking them with us, and one of the things that you haven't mentioned in your statement is careers advice, and the importance of careers advice when people are making choices about the future. I have to say, my own view is that our careers advice, particularly for young people in schools, is pretty appalling; it's not very good and it doesn't always promote the wider opportunities that there are, particularly with apprenticeships. I think that we do need a greater focus on it by the Welsh Government in order to improve that offer and improve the quality of that careers advice.
You've mentioned apprenticeships, obviously, and the role that they can play in addressing the skills gap. It is important to have those industry links, and I know that the Welsh Government has tried to nurture those links, particularly with larger employers. But there are many, many smaller employers that don't always think that they've got the time to be able to develop apprenticeship opportunities within their own workforce—they don't realise the benefits that that can bring. So, I wonder whether you could tell us what you're going to do to reach out to those smaller and medium-sized companies, perhaps where the owners and directors of those businesses are busy rushing around doing all sorts of other things, and the last thing they want on their plate is to have to try and develop an apprenticeship programme, when, actually, it can be pretty straightforward, with the right support and engagement by local further education colleges and others in order to help deliver those programmes.
In addition to that, you've made reference to the need to monitor on an ongoing basis the skills that will be needed, because, of course, there'll be different skills needed in 2040 than we need now, because technologies will move on. So, will this be a document that is refreshed now on a regular basis? Because, clearly, it will need to be looked at fairly regularly, I would hope, in order that we can have a workforce that is fit for the future and meets the aspirations that we all have.
We know that we've already got a skills shortage in some areas. When you try to get hold of contractors to do some of the work at the moment, even on home adaptations for renewables, it can be difficult to get things scheduled in a timely manner. Of course, that then puts additional risk into the system, because people can go to cowboys and others, which then undermines the success of any programmes that we want to see. So, what action are you taking in the shorter term to make sure that there are proper assurance schemes in place, when skills are out there that people can recognise, in the same way that we recognise CORGI plumbers and things like that, so that we can recognise those people who are accredited to deliver some of the work that is going to be done, certainly in the next five or six years, when people are looking for those home adaptations in particular?

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you for the questions. I think on your final point, there's a point that goes beyond trading-standards work and is more about public-facing accreditation to give people assurance. If you think about the way that—. On your point about solar panels, when I was genuinely young, growing up, on our house we had two solar panels. It was very, very unusual, yet now there's been a real explosion in the industry and in fitters. One of the things we're doing in the green business loan schemeI was talking about with Vikki Howells earlier is that we're looking at ways to keep more of that money local, and part of our challenge is the number of people who can do the work and are available. There is still something about working with that industry on making sure there is proper quality assurance. So, it is part of what we're looking to do to make sure those skills don't just become more commonplace, as they will need to be, but will then maintain the level of public-facing assurance. So, that is definitely something we are looking at. It goes a bit beyond the statement, but it is an important and obvious next step.
In terms of the horizon we're going to have with the action plans we're going to draw up, of course, Members across the Chamber will know that the regional skills partnerships are on the same footprint as our economic regions, which also map on the same areas as the growth deals that exist as well. So, we already have areas where we work more broadly on the skills that exist. Within this document, we're also going to look at a short, medium and longer term horizon, so we will need to keep on making sure that we have provision that matches need for people, for businesses and for public services.
Part of the challenge is how dynamic the system is and whether we get regular engagement between skills providers, but also the businesses and public services who need them as well. As I move around the country and talk to different people, every now and again, I hear someone saying, 'I'm really unhappy with my local FE college', and other people saying, 'My local FE college is brilliant, we get exactly what we want and have a really good relationship.' Well, some of that is actually about the nature of the engagement and the relationship, and often it's that the two people who are unhappy don't talk to each other, or the college isn't aware there's a business complaining. So, it is about how we get people into a more regular and constructive dialogue, rather than waiting until things have gone wrong or not worked at all for them.
On apprenticeships, we've been running a public-facing campaign for businesses to take up apprentices. I recognise that, for some businesses, they understand what they need to do, they see the value in doing it. Yesterday, I was talking to businesses in my own constituency, one of them was a hospitality business, and they were saying that, actually, in terms of the local college and the apprentices that come out of that, they're scooped up by larger businesses very quickly. So, there's a challenge about supply there. There's a good career to be had, but the challenge is getting enough of them, whereas other much smaller businesses don't know that they exist. It's why we've been looking to not just promote apprenticeships as an opportunity, but we're looking more at shared apprenticeships as well between more than one employer, potentially. It's something that I saw when I was up in Deeside in the not-too-distant past: people who work with more than one employer to get a full, rounded apprenticeship experience. So, we're looking to do more in that area in the future as well.
On your point about careers advice, I think you're being a little unkind, but I do recognise that there is always more for us to do and to understand how the advice that people give—. People of our vintage, as it were, can remember careers advice was pretty rudimentary, and it was often a teacher who said, 'I think you should do this,' or 'Go and look over there and look at a book and decide what you want to do.' Actually, we are much better than that. Our challenge is, and it's partly about budget, it's also, though, about the capacity to give people, I think, really good work experience during their time in school. But it's also, in a number of our growth areas, the opportunity to keep people's minds open to the future, and it really does come back to lots of things that happen in the curriculum, because most people have made choices, often subconsciously, by the time they're 15 and 16. So, doing everything then is too late for too many people. But to understand the skills you need to have different jobs, there's a conversation we're having with my colleague the education Minister, but also with people in different growth sectors, including in these areas of green skills, to make sure that the information that schools get, that young people get, keep their minds open to genuine career choices for the future.
On climate, just finally, my son's eight, and he is a great deal more climate and environmentally conscious than I ever recall being when I was eight years old. So, we're already seeing that young people do have a different view on the world, and the new curriculum, I think, will enhance that. It'll help them to see the world even more as they do already, but I think and I hope, certainly, that will add to what we're trying to do with this skills plan, for people to think about those opportunities to change and recreate the world, and make sure it's there for their children and not just ours.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for the statement, Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: I don't think there's any doubt in the Chamber that the net-zero skills strategy is a step in the right direction. I do think we need to be clear, not just the Government, but us as opposition parties as well, about what we mean when we talk about green skills. That clarity will be all-important, especially when we turn to the FE sector to deliver those skills.
The strategy, as outlinedby the Government, will focus, at least in part, on providing training and education to individuals and businesses to support the transition to a low-carbon economy, and there are a number of announcements to welcome in relation to personal learning accounts and the role of short courses. I think it's fair to say that it's not enough to rely on individuals and businesses to make the necessary changes on their own. We only need to look at the current economic and social conditions in Wales, which make it difficult for many individuals and businesses to make the necessary changes. The COVID-19 pandemic, and the subsequent and ongoing cost-of-living crisis, and the impact on supply chains, has had a significant impact on the economy, and many businesses are struggling to survive. I've raised previously with the Minister the need for green energy grants for businesses to invest in onsite renewables. Investing, of course, in sustainable infrastructure and systems can provide new opportunities for growth and employment, but this requires, of course, Government investment and support.
We heard about the skills shortage from the Conservative spokesperson, and he's right to highlight it. But we must acknowledge, in tackling this, that retention is going to be one of the biggest challenges facing our FE colleges and higher education institutions in the coming years. We can create all of the new places on courses and all the new apprenticeships we want, but if students can't afford to stay on them, then they, ultimately, will fail the Government's objectives. We are talking essentially about large swathes of students from low-income backgrounds being locked out of participating in this new green economy that we always go on about. Keeping low-income students in education is in everyone's interest.
I've talked about EMA, but I think we should also consider the need for a national apprenticeship minimum wage, though, of course, the Welsh Government is restricted, in fairness, in what it can do in relation to this. Previously, the Minister has said that we need to talk about upskilling and education as an investment, and we have rehearsed many a time why that simply won't wash with low-income students, not least because they haven't got the capacity to think that far ahead. But if we stick with that investment narrative for the moment, I'd be keen to understand how the Government will start talking to young people now about some of these jobs that might be available in the new green economy. What is the route map, essentially, available to them? We've heard about careers advice; we can't and shouldn't forget about work experience as well. It's vital that we get this right.
Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, and of no surprise to the Minister, I'm sure, I must emphasise the need for the Government to address the issue of job security for those who work in industries that will be impacted by the transition to a low-carbon economy. We cannot expect individuals to make the necessary changes if they fear losing their livelihoods in the process. The Government must work with industries and trade unions to ensure a just transition to a low-carbon economy takes place. This means providing support for those who are impacted by the transition, creating new job opportunities in sustainable industries, and ensuring that everyone who needs to be upskilled will be upskilled. It's welcome to see the Government reflect on this today. We simply cannot repeat the mistakes of previous Governments, most notably Thatcher's Government—the effects of her decisions and lack of transition we still feel today.

Vaughan Gething AC: The point about the just transition is something that, as I say, is very much in Ministers' minds in the choices we make about the opportunity, but also the disruption, that moving to a different way of working in a whole range of sectors offers. I think, on the point about what are green skills, I covered that in my statement. The Office for National Statistics will be, I think, helpful in getting there. We decided not to wait for that work before publishing this statement. We've got work to do on action plans, and we can take account of that as we're moving forward.
On how we engage young people, there's a range of different ways in which we do that. There's different survey work that we do through schools. There's also work we're doing with the young person's guarantee itself, directly listening to people taking part in it. Actually, that has led to some of the changes we've made in Jobs Growth Wales+. From providers, but also from young people themselves, we've actually introduced some further financial support for people to make sure that we were taking care of, and account of, some of the points about travel, but also being able to eat during the day as well when undertaking some of that work. So, we are listening and looking to be flexible on making sure that our offer makes sense for people so they can complete the opportunities that we're providing.
I think lots of people do have the capacity to understand that there is a potential improved opportunity for them to learn and to earn at the end of those interventions. Our challenge is practically helping people to get through the course to do so, and I know that that's the perspective that the Member takes. We'll keep on looking at what we can do to be as flexible as possible within the reality of the budget constraints that we have. But our completion record on a range of our skills courses, including apprenticeships, is actually pretty good, and certainly compares better to what takes place across England. What we want to do is to not go backwards, and to still be as successful as possible. I do take on board the Member's point on work experience, which we talked about earlier today—the value of high-quality work experience and what that does.
I'll finish on this point in relation to the Member's questions about energy bills and the reality. Again, for individuals as consumers, but for businesses as well, there are real challenges and questions to be raised, and I do hope that the UK Government takes the opportunity in the budget in two weeks' time to do something. The energy Secretary was today saying he could understand that there's a choice to be made, and understands the case being made. Without that, though, a number of the businesses that we want to see survive into the future won't survive the next quarter of activity. There's a real challenge and a real opportunity for the UK Government to do the right thing, and, I think, gain some recognition from people across this Chamber and otherwise. If not, we'll be back here in three or four months' time, talking about, in every region and every constituency, the loss of jobs that should have had a future but have actually not been able to survive because of yet another increase in their energy bills, and the costs for their customers and consumers as well.

Jenny Rathbone AC: First of all, I'm having difficulty finding this new plan that's been published today on the internet. It would be great to know whether it has actually been made available to us all, because I'm very keen to understand which are the seven key areas and the 36 actions.
Following up on the points that you've just made to Luke Fletcher, we can hope that the UK Government will do the right thing about energy bills, but, really, the sustainable short-term solution has to be improving the energy efficiency of our homes. Britain has the most leaky homes in the whole of Europe, and energy bills are really a struggle for about a third of all our households. We know it's the biggest source of indebtedness. No. 1 must be reducing the amount of energy that people have to buy in order to keep their home warm.
I just wondered, within these key areas and targets, how are you planning to upskill the construction industry workforce so that we have the technical and precision skills to massively reduce the cost of heating Welsh homes? As identified by Darren Millar, there's a lot of interest in putting solar panels on people's roofs, but not very many people who know how to do it, particularly those who like to put new tiles on roofs—they're not saying, 'Oh, and by the way, you should put a solar panel on as well'. We really do need to accelerate the process of ensuring that far more people know how to do this, in order to reduce our carbon emissions, as well as the debt, which is going to foreign companies outside Wales.

Vaughan Gething AC: On the starting point, the strategy has been published, it's available on the Welsh Government website. And it's not just the actions; I think the Member would find some interest in the eight emission sectors, because one of them is residential buildings. We're looking at what happens already as an emissions sector, as well as opportunities to make sure that fewer emissions actually take place in the construction, but then in the operation of residential buildings. On your point about energy-efficient homes, my point is that we need support now for costs that people pay now—and I know that the Member will have people who are really struggling in her own constituency, as indeed will we all—as well as investing in efficiency. That's both retrofitting homes that exist already—and I look at my own constituency; there are large parts of my constituency with very old housing stock, where there's a challenge about how you retrofit—but it's also then about the new homes that we expect to be creating. On your point about solar panelling, where people have got those skills, they're very busy, because there's real demand out there. The challenge is how we can do more in that area that will help both the new homes and also retrofitting a range of other homes as well. There are real opportunities to keep that money locally as well. One of the things that we're looking to do in the green business loan scheme that I referenced is to try to make sure that we can direct people to support to help improve the energy efficiency of their business and to keep that money as locally as possible. Most businesses in Wales are keen to be able to do both of those things. So, I do have a level of optimism, as well as understanding the real imperative I know the Member regularly brings to this debate about the need to do this and the economic return in doing so, and what it will do in dealing with the climate and nature emergencies we also have as well.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister, for bringing forward today's statement on the Welsh Government's net-zero skills strategy and the action plan as well. Minister, you'll be glad to hear that, last week, I had the pleasure of attending Growth Track 360's Westminster parliamentary reception, joined there also by a number of MSs, MPs, council leaders and members of the Lords as well, from across parties. During this event it was great to see highlighted the fantastic cross-border work and collaboration opportunities through organisations such as the Mersey Dee Alliance and the work of our local councils in north Wales, who are working with businesses, as you know, to help enable a net-zero economy in north Wales. Of course, all of this comes along with thousands of well-paid green jobs, which further support and enhance north Wales's economy, all of which, though, as I'm sure you agree, need those right skills to enable these jobs to happen and for the ambitions of Growth Track 360 and the Mersey Dee Alliance to come to fruition, otherwise we risk all these great ideas just becoming an academic exercise. So, Minister, how will you use this skills strategy and the action plan within it to ensure that current growth deals and future economic opportunities are fully realised? And how will you ensure this strategy is properly futureproofed for the ambitions of organisation like the Mersey Dee Alliance and for projects like Growth Track 360?

Vaughan Gething AC: It's part of the point about the eight emissions sectors and the action plans for each one of them, making sure they join up with not just the Net Zero Wales plan, but that we actually have some consistency and understanding within those regional skills partnerships, within the growth deal areas as well, where people are collaborating more effectively, so across north Wales as well as the Mersey Dee Alliance, in seeing the opportunities that exist. This is one of those areas where there is a risk for the future in not being able to transform our economy, in not being able to do that, not just for the climate and nature emergency, but the fact that we will have lost an opportunity economically as well if we don't do so. So, I don't see anything that is inconsistent with our desire to grow the economy in a sustainable way and the imperative to act in a way that reflects on the climate and nature emergency we have, the emission sectors, where we'll be drawing up those individual plans, and, as I said earlier to Darren Millar, the short, medium and long term perspective on what we'll need to do to actually generate the right skills for the different sectors of the economy as well as reducing emissions in those eight key sectors. I'm sure the Member will enjoy going through all 36 action areas, and to look to come back in the short, medium and longer term to see how much progress we have made.

And finally, Samuel Kurtz.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I thank the Minister for his statement on the net-zero skills strategy. Prior to the statement, I took the time to read through the 'Stronger, fairer, greener Wales: a plan for employability and skills' action plan and the annexe, 'Skills emission sector overview and cross-cutting themes'. I was disappointed to find no mention of Pembrokeshire or Pembrokeshire College, only one mention of Coleg Sir Gâr, and no mention of floating offshore wind. I won't read too much into this at this stage, depending on the Minister's answer to this question, as he'll know that I'm a big advocate for both my constituency and floating offshore wind, but to get the benefits for these communities that I represent we need the whole supply chain there. So, given that there are no mentions of these are there, what guarantees can you give to my constituents that your net-zero skills strategy, in aiming to get net zero by 2050, ensures those supply chains will be as local as possible? Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Vaughan Gething AC: That's a key objective to what we're looking to do and the opportunities the Member highlights. I've said regularly in this Chamber I don't just want to see a decarbonisation of the way that power is produced; I want to see the economic opportunities as locally as possible. I don't want to see those opportunities taken up in France and in Spain in the manufacture of the equipment and in the skills that will be needed in very long-term jobs. I want to see that investment take place in the different parts of Wales. Whether it's in south-west Wales or across north Wales we have a real opportunity to generate significant amounts of power and jobs with a long-term future. It's always the way that, when you give examples of what is taking place in different parts of Wales as examples of what's happening, some people say, 'My part of Wales hasn't been mentioned often enough.' I know that, between Sam and Samuel, you regularly talk about the parts of Wales that you currently represent, and I can give you this assurance: in delivering on the ambitions set out within this plan, in setting out the action plans for each of the emission sectors, there could and should be a real benefit to every single constituent in every single region in Wales, and this is part of what we see as a future in genuinely creating a fairer, greener and more prosperous Wales.

Diolch i'r Gweinidog.

5. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Dental Reform

The next item is postponed until 14 March.

6. Statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services: Escalation and further intervention to improve the quality of services in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board

So, we will move on to item 6, a statement by the Minister for Health and Social Services on the escalation and further intervention to improve the quality of services in Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, and I call on the Minister to make the statement, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Further to my written statement yesterday concerning the extraordinary measures I’ve taken to stabilise and support the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, I want to explain the decisions that I’ve made, what support I’m putting in place and what I expect to happen in the next few weeks and months.
These were not decisions I took lightly. Firstly, I want to reassure the people living in north Wales that they will be able to use their local health services as normal. Every day, thousands of people across north Wales are receiving an excellent service by the NHS, but there is a lack of consistency when it comes to quality, safety and efficiency, and correcting this will be at the heart of the changes that will need to be made. I know that we also have thousands of dedicated health board workers who may be concerned at these developments, but I’d like to reassure them that their day-to-day services and activities will continue and will not be immediately affected by 'special measures' status.
In 2020, we took the controversial decision to de-escalate Betsi from special measures. Many of you will say that it was the wrong decision to take, and we’ve heard some say again today that it was a political decision and one that was premature; this was not the case. There were several reasons behind our decision to de-escalate Betsi from special measures in November 2020. The health board responded well to the COVID challenges, and we received a number of reports that signalled that the health board were taking positive strategic steps towards improvement. We were of the view that the appointment of the new chief executive and the targeted intervention support that was put in place would enable the board to continue to make the improvements that we expected to see. Indeed, the leadership from the new chief executive and developments of a new operating model all signified that the organisation was strategically taking positive steps forward.
But more recently, the health board’s response on many issues have not provided the assurance needed, despite the considerable additional financial resources that have been provided, and HIW's unannounced visits, as well as my own unannounced visits, have demonstrated that improvements are not taking place at the pace required. I have serious concerns relating to the performance and governance of the board as well as concerns about the leadership and culture in the organisation. The description of the board being ‘dysfunctional’ in the recent Audit Wales report further enhanced those concerns. We need to fundamentally change the organisational culture, and I announced my decision yesterday to place the health board into special measures. I’ve subsequently taken further action to ensure board stability.
It has become clear that there is a need for new leadership and direction. As part of being placed into special measures, I have spoken with the non-executive members and as a result, the chair, vice-chair, and independent members have stepped aside. It’s important that we do things correctly and for the right reasons, and that we do them compassionately and at pace. I’ve made four direct temporary non-executive appointments to the board to ensure stability, and they join with immediate effect. Further appointments will be made in the coming weeks and months. These appointments have extensive and wide-ranging experience, especially in the areas in which the health board needs to improve. I’m pleased to announce that they will be led by Dyfed Edwards, a former leader of Gwynedd Council, and deputy chair of the Welsh Revenue Authority. Further direct appointments will follow soon. They will undertake the statutory requirements of the board chair and independent members. In doing so, they will review executive leadership arrangements and structures and take the necessary decisions for improvements, taking into account the findings of the Audit Wales report. A campaign to recruit new independent members to the board beyond this initial period of stabilisation will commence later this year.
I am also of the view that now is not the time to make structural changes. It’s important to focus on the quality and delivery of services, which need significant and rapid improvement, and therefore I have no intention of breaking the health board into smaller organisations, in particular at a time when we are encouraging regional co-operation and working, which is needed to support better clinical outcomes for patients. A reorganisation would be hugely disruptive and would take attention away from the need to focus now on providing the best possible service to the people of north Wales.
The special measures arrangements will involve the creation of a health board intervention and support team. I am today able to update you on the appointment of four health board advisers. They are: Mick Giannasi, Alan Brace, Dr Graham Shortland, Susan Aitkenhead and—I'm sorry, there were five appointments—David Jenkins.

Eluned Morgan AC: The advisers will initially be contracted for six months, starting today, and will support the health board on board governance and other issues related to special measures. This will include a level of personal support to the new chair and independent members, and to provide feedback where appropriate to the board from discussions and observations. In addition, they will report formally to me, as Minister, in respect of their assessment and views of the board’s ability to deliver and whether any further work is required to develop the board to ensure that it has appropriate finance and audit arrangements. We will also appoint specialist HR support to the new chair and the board to review the organisational structure and portfolios and to provide quality assurance for the underpinning systems and processes and provide support to the board in the first six months.
As independent advisers, their function is not to take executive decisions but to analyse and assess the way in which the board is discharging its decision making in order to assist the chair and the board to meet Welsh Government expectations. This will also involve providing Welsh Government with their assessment of issues, necessary actions and progress.One of the key objectives of this new board will be the permanent recruitment of a new chief executive for the health board. The new board will need to appoint someone with a track record of turning around a health organisation, and someone who has the determination, vision and skills to ensure that the health board meets its potential. Plans are already under way for this key appointment. I will also be looking to the board to ensure that the structures and processes are in place to drive the improvements needed.
Whilst specialmeasures will apply to the organisation, I wish to reassure both the patients and the communities served by the health board, as well as the staff working for it, that day-to-day services and activities will continue as normal, with an increased focus on quality and safety. This is not a reflection on the hard-working and dedicated front-line staff of the health board who work tirelessly to help patients and improve their lives. I want to say again, as I have many times before, thank you to all of the staff members of the health board for their commitment and dedication to helping people. I hope that the decision taken yesterday takes us on the path to a health board that the people of north Wales deserve, that they have confidence in, and that they can be proud of. Thank you.

I have many Members who wish to contribute this afternoon, understandably on such an important statement. If I may ask all Members to keep their contributions to their time limits so that I can actually ensure that all are able to speak today. Darren Millar.

Darren Millar AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I listened very carefully to your statement,Minister, and I didn't hear an apology to the people of north Wales for the failure of this Welsh Government to sort out the deep-seated problems in our health board in the region, that have been ongoing, not just since 2015 when the Welsh Government first put Betsi Cadwaladr into special measures, but for a long time before that too. It should never have been taken out of special measures; I still believe that that decision was political, no matter what you have said today, and it should never have happened. We called in this Chamber last June for the organisation to go back into special measures, and you refused to listen to our calls. It wasn't just the calls of these benches; it was the calls of every single person representing a constituency in north Wales and every single person representing that region. We know what goes on in that health board. We see the letters that come in from constituents, and we see the whistleblowing letters that come in from staff as well. And frankly, your response to date is woefully inadequate. I have read with great interest the Audit Wales report—the Audit Wales report that you say has initiated the action that you took yesterday. I'll read some quotes from it. It says,

Darren Millar AC: 'We found clear and deep-seated fractures within the Executive Team',
'we have significant doubt as to whether working relationships'—
this is within the executive team—'are reparable'.
There are
'significant problems with working relationships within the Executive Team'.
'The evidence presented to us points to dysfunctionality and factions within the team'.
It's within the executive team that this report points to these problems, not with the independent board members, who you forced to resign yesterday, instead of the very people who are responsible for the failures on the ground—that executive team, not one of whom have held themselves accountable and offered their resignation to you. I find that appalling, and I think it's about time that we had mechanisms in Wales to remove people like that who do not accept their responsibility for failures when things go wrong. We have a situation in north Wales where patients have died, where patients have come to harm, as a result of the failings that have taken place, and frankly, people are owed an apology. We've got problems in our vascular services, our emergency departments, our urology services, our ophthalmology services, our mental health services, and our cancer services too—people waiting too long for treatment, and the situation under the watch of various health Ministers in this Government has gotten worse, not better, during periods of targeted intervention.
'We need some new leadership'—yes, you're absolutely right we need new leadership. We need new leadership both in the health board on the executive team, and, frankly, we need a new Government, because this Government is incapable of being able to sort these problems out. I don't know why that is. And even when you triangulate the evidence that's in the Audit Wales report to other pieces of evidence, you can see that all of the fingers of blame for the problems and the culture in that organisation point to that executive team. So, can I ask you, Minister, why on earth would you get rid of the independent members who've been doing their best to try and hold to account that executive team in recent months? Why on earth would you ask them to resign and not ask for the resignations of those executives who have been collectively responsible for these failures?
I know, from the letter that was sent to the First Minister yesterday and shared with Members of the Senedd that the chair of the health board has written to you on a number of occasions, most recently in September of last year, raising concerns, escalating concerns to you, and of course to the director general of the department, who is also the chief executive, of course, of NHS Wales. He didn't even receive a response—didn't even receive a response, and this is a health board that is supposedly in targeted intervention. And it's not just his letters that you seem to not pay proper regard to. Geoff Ryall-Harvey of the North Wales Community Health Council wrote to you in August of last year, talking about the assurances on which you were basing your responses to that organisation. He said that the assurances weren't worth the paper that they were written on. But you defended the executive team that were giving those assurances to you to provide to him; you didn't acknowledge that there were serious concerns about the quality of those responses at all. It's unacceptable, Minister, and some of the blame for this has to be laid at your door. Now, can I ask—? The report, the Audit Wales report, refers to the fraud investigation. It talks about the Ernst & Young report, which was commissioned before the NHS Counter Fraud Authority came and had a look over the books because of this missing £122 million-worth of expenditure for which there was no proper records. And it says that that piece of work uncovered some serious problems in the health board organisation. In fact, the letter from the chair of the health board to the First Minister yesterday made specific reference that there was evidence of serious malpractice. I'd like to see a copy of that report. I think, from a transparency point of view, that the people of north Wales deserve to see a copy of that report too.

Darren, you need to conclude, please.

Darren Millar AC: Because that will be a third report pointing to problems in that executive team. Can I ask one final question—

Quick.

Darren Millar AC: —if I may, Deputy Presiding Officer? Lots of these executives have a close working relationship with people, understandably, in your Government department, including, of course, the chief executive of NHS Wales. I want to know what the chief executive of NHS Wales actually does to hold those individuals responsible. Because if she's the chief executive of NHS Wales, you'd expect her to be holding these people to account for their behaviour, which is unacceptable. I want these people out. I want these people gone. The people of north Wales want to see them gone, and we're holding you accountable for not getting shot of them yesterday.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr iawn. I'm just going to give you a quick lesson in how the system works, because I think it's really important that people understand—[Interruption.]—understand how the system works. So, I am responsible for the NHS, but I delegate that responsibility to independent boards. I set them parameters, I set them goals, I set them targets. But then I appoint people to those boards to oversee independent organisations, and their job is to run the organisation. It's their job to hold the executive to account. It's not my job. That is why I appoint them—[Interruption.] If you don't mind, I will carry on. When they fail to do the job that we've asked them to do, holding the executives to account—because it's their job to do that—then I have to step in, and that's what I did.

Darren Millar AC: You sacked them for doing that.

Eluned Morgan AC: The executives are still there. The executives are still there, and the whole point is—[Interruption.]—the whole point is and I think what's important is that we do listen and read carefully the Audit Wales report, which does talk about deep-seated fractures in the executive team, but it also says that there was a deeply worrying degree of dysfunctionality within the board and senior leadership in Betsi. And I think what's important is that people understand that the step I took yesterday was simply the first step, the first step in a process where I am sure the new chair will want to read very carefully that Audit Wales report, and I'm sure and I hope will take action in relation to that. And I can assure you that I very much read the riot act to some of those executives—[Interruption.] I do not have the power to—[Interruption.] I do not have the power to require executives to step down. I do not employ these people.

Members need to allow the Minister to respond.

Eluned Morgan AC: I do not employ these people. These have legal rights that need to be respected, and there has to be a process that it is gone through. So, I think it's really important that people understand the system and understand that this is the first step of many.
Now, I think that those powers that I have actually need to be strengthened. That's one of the conclusions that is clear to me—that I do not have the tools that I need to hold some of these organisations to account. And so I have asked officials to set up a group to look at how we can improve accountability within the NHS, and I will be choosing people myself in terms of who will be involved in advising me on how to tighten up accountability within the NHS. I think we're in a position where of course it's important that people understand where responsibility lies, but the independent bodies, I appoint them to do a job. What I've done is to step in when I don't think they've done the job that I needed them to do, which was partly to hold the executive to account, to take the next step, which they'd identified, and that didn't happen.
So, can I just also respond to the issue of Ernst & Young? Let's talk about that. So, there has been an issue in relation to fraud, which is extremely concerning. I think it's probably worth underlining that this money has not gone missing; this is about poor accounting, which is also unacceptable. It is an ongoing inquiry, so it's not possible to publish that report, but what I do know is that there has been the suspension of three members of the finance team already in relation to that situation. But it's an ongoing inquiry. Again, this is something that's going to have to be at the very top of the list for those new incoming members of the health board.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'm going to start with where I agree with the Minister—that's on the placing of Betsi Cadwaladr in special measures. But it's pretty clear, isn't it, that it shouldn't have been taken out in the first place, conveniently and prematurely. But the Minister wanted to apportion blame too. She says the recent Audit Wales report was the straw that broke the camel's back; it spoke of the dysfunctionality of the board. She referred in a Radio Wales interview this morning to the huge amount of criticism of the executive board members, but it's the independent members, of course, that she decided to very publicly hang out to dry yesterday. She's defended her actions, saying, 'I don't have the powers to intervene directly in terms of the executive.' She's said that again this afternoon. But that's exactly what special measures allow the Minister to do, effectively running the health board, even supporting the chair and independent members if that's what she wanted.
Now, we have a sugar-coated description, don't we, of what happened yesterday in the Minister's statement—'spoken with the non-executive members. As a result, they've decided to step aside.' Let's be a little bit more direct, shall we, for anybody else who may be considering taking up an appointment by this Government and considering what kind of backing they can expect. The Minister may want to confirm that, having summoned them to the meeting, she told them they had 50 minutes to resign or she'd sack them, and in so doing bar them from other public appointments for two years, and that, even before the 50-minute deadline was up, a draft letter of termination had been handed to them, just to press the matter home. How could they not resign? But their dignified response will have resonated with many. In a damning public letter to the First Minister, they said,
'We have no confidence in the Welsh Government's grasp of the situation.'
Now, that was put to the Minister this morning, and let me tell you what she said:
'It wasn't my job to have a grasp'.
This is the health Minister.
'It wasn't my job to have a grasp, they were in charge',
she said. Responsibility and accountability ends with the Minister. She did actually agree with that, but said that she delegates down to others. And by the way, this isn't an unconditional defence of the independent members; this is to show the glaring difference between blame apportioned to them and the complete denial of any responsibility by the Minister.
Let's return to that meeting yesterday. I believe that the Minister told the independent members that their role was to hold the feet of the executives to the fire. But didn't they do that over vascular, urology, Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, with their judgment being found right time and time again?
Let me read more from that statement of theirs after their resignation. They say they
'uncovered serious failings in the financial management of the Health Board. We commissioned a specialist review...which confirmed our concerns, found evidence of serious malpractice, and resulted in a counter fraud investigation.‌‌​​​‍‌​‌​​‌‌‌‍‌​‌‌​​‌​‍‌​‌‌‌​‌‌ This is underway, but has serious implications for other NHS organisations and the Government.'
You, Minister, will be aware, no doubt, of the questions that some are asking about possible links between that and the actions taken yesterday. I will read on.'We have also previously and repeatedly escalated concerns to Welsh Government as evidenced by way of correspondence to the director general at the start of September, which highlighted many of the matters captured in the Audit Wales board effectiveness report, which has our full support, and yet we did not receive a response, let alone support in reply to those escalations.'
That's very strange, isn't it, not receiving a response on such serious matters. Perhaps the Minister can confirm that. You'd have thought that the Minister would want to work with and listen to anyone raising concerns of that kind. I told you the Minister said her actions yesterday followed the publication of the audit report. Perhaps the Minister can confirm suggestions that there was a search on for new independent board members as much as five weeks ago, before the audit report. Now, I must say that I found it very troubling indeed that the first message I got this morning, via someone close to that audit report, was this: 'The Minister has got rid of the wrong people.' And do you know what? I think they might be on to something and I think many others will conclude that too, just as many have concluded, as I have, that Betsi, in its current form, is beyond repair.
The Minister refers to culture problems within Betsi, but I tell you that this cultural dysfunctionality runs to Betsi's core. It's years since I said, if things can't be turned around, Government should look at breaking up Betsi into smaller, more manageable parts. Well, the sand on that particular timer ran out years ago. It's been clear to me, and many staff and patients, for some time that Betsi has to go. Successive Welsh Governments, health Ministers, have tinkered, but they haven't taken that decisive action, saying, as the Minister says again today, that this would
'take attention away from the need to focus now on providing the best possible service'.
But we're going around and around in circles, spending more money on failed attempts to get things right than we would on reorganisation. She tells us that breaking it up would be wrong when we're trying to encourage regional co-operation.Betsi can't even co-operate with itself.

Rhun, you need to conclude now as well, please.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Let's have a fresh start.
And finally, on the Minister's role herself, I suggested yesterday that she should be considering her own position and her own role in all of this. She said this morning she'll remain health Minister as long as the First Minister has confidence in her. Well, I can tell you that confidence in this Government and Minister's ability to sort out Betsi has long gone.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, I think it's really important that people understand that this is a first step and there will be more steps that follow this, so I'll just repeat some of the points that I made earlier to Darren. But I think it's important that people understand that I have the power to dismiss the board; I do not have the power to dismiss executives. They have rights; they have employment rights. I do not employ them; I cannot dismiss them. That is the reality of the situation. So, I'm not sure what exactly you want me to do. Do you want me to directly employ all 105,000 people who work—[Interruption.] No, I do not have the powers, even under special measures, to sack people who work directly for the health boards. [Interruption.] No, I don't, and I think it's really important that people understand that I do not have those powers, which is why one of the reasons—[Interruption.] One of the reasons I want to look at the accountability mechanisms is because I don't have the levers that I think that I require to make the kind of interventions that I think are necessary. So, that is something that I will be looking at and already I've approached a few people to help me in that task.
Now, just in terms of this letter to the chair. So, the chair of Betsi forwarded an e-mail on 1 September, and it was an e-mail from the chair himself to the then chief executive, Jo Whitehead, and it was marked 'for your information'. Now, I don't know about you, but I don't answer all of the e-mails that I get 'for your information'. And the director general, as a result of that, arranged to meet—despite the fact it was 'for your information'—followed up and arranged to meet with the chair on his return from leave on 21 September. No formal correspondence has been received from the board by the director general. I think it's really important that people understand that. And Plaid's answer to everything is reorganisation, new structures,more managers—that's what we need: more managers. I want more front-line people. Trying to get rid—. [Interruption.] You will be getting more managers if you restructure, I can tell you. That is the consequence of restructuring. So, I want to focus on the front line. I want to focus on getting through those waiting lists. I want to get those cancer referral times down. I want to make sure that people in north Wales can get the service they require, and I don't think that a massively distracting reorganisation is going to help in that task.

Ken Skates AC: Minister, can I thank you for your statement today and begin by recognising the efforts made by those boards members who've departed, regardless of the situation facing BCUHB, as amongst those members are some of the most respected and competent individuals in north Wales?
The statement you've made today indicates that further change is to come. We've heard that you wish to fundamentally change organisational culture, that the new directly appointed board members will review executive leadership arrangements, and that yesterday's action was the first step in what will be a series of significant changes. And I therefore infer that we will see huge change potentially within the executive team, possibly further into middle management.
Minister, you've also been very clear on your position concerning structural change, but in order to realise cultural change within the organisation, will you commit to an extensive and genuine exercise in engaging with the citizens of north Wales to ascertain what the people of region want from any future arrangements? Will you also examine the possibility of allowing the people in north Wales to directly elect board members, in order to make independent members fully accountable to the region's citizens?
And finally, would it be possible, not necessarily today, for the Government to set out the circumstances that would trigger structural change? I ask this because being clear that failure could lead to structural change should certainly focus minds. Diolch.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Ken. I think it's important that we do recognise that members of the previous board had made big efforts to try and hold the executive team to account. What they haven't done is the next step, which is to follow through on the findings. And I think what's important is that there's an understanding now that it's that next step that needs to be taken. So, I would like to recognise the considerable talent that there is amongst those members of the board who stepped down.
I think it's really important that we engage, as you say, with the citizens of north Wales. We do need to, first of all, give confidence to them that, actually, these services, the day-to-day work, will be carrying on. And it was really interesting, actually, yesterday in Glan Clwyd Hospital, just speaking to some of the members of staff there about what's happened and what difference this will make, and they were saying, well, actually, they're just getting on with their jobs. This is just a big organisational structural thing at the top. The problem is that, sometimes, you need a little bit more assertiveness at the top in terms of changing the culture that will then filter down. And I guess the fact that they did see that disconnection also suggested that there's a problem there as well.
I think making sure we do not lose focus on those front-line services, but I think it's really important also that we recognise that, actually, the grip that the board have, and the executives more than anyone else, is quite shocking. I did an unannounced visit to a facility in north Wales and I was stunned by the lack of activity going on there. What was upsetting was the fact that, actually, nobody was monitoring that. That is an executive failure. It's an executive failure, and what's important is why was it, not just that there was an executive failure, but, actually, how come the board wasn't aware that the kind of activity that should have been going on wasn't going on? So, I think that's important.
In relation to staff, I think it's really important also that we understand that there are many people who work for the Betsi Cadwaladr health board; it's a workforce of about 19,000 people delivering care to about 700,000 people. I did a video yesterday, both in Welsh and English, just to try and explain directly to them about what was happening in relation to the board.
I think your idea of electing board members directly—. Well, look, I’m interested in accountability, because at the moment I feel like every single thing that happens in relation to health falls on my head and my head alone, and I’m not sure if that’s a fair system. I think it’s important that we understand that there needs to be a different system. And you’re quite right: in England, that doesn’t happen. So, there are 500 hospitals in England, and I can tell you that the Secretary of State there doesn’t get anything like the kind of scrutiny that I get here on the 20 hospitals we have here. So, I think it’s really important that we start to understand, right, where is accountability? I think that conversation needs to happen.
If we go down the directly elected route, I think there are issues that we need to consider there because we do need people who understand governance and accountability and whatever, and they’re not necessarily the people who can win elections, so I think we’ve just got to do some thinking around that. But I am very interested in looking again at the accountability within the system, because at the moment I’m prepared to take accountability, but I do think that at the moment it all falls on my desk time after time, and, obviously, in terms of holding to account people when I’ve already delegated responsibility, I think we need the public to understand that that is the mechanism that we use.

Jane Dodds AS: I’m afraid I’m also seeking to understand what’s happened in relation to the independent members of the board. We’ve all heard how important it is for Betsi Cadwaladr to go into special measures, and we all want to thank the staff as well. But it is critical that we understand the process, as we’ve all heard from people—and, in my case, from a very well-respected former independent member of the board—of the situation. We’ve heard that that board had a role not in operational management, but in maintaining oversight and delivery of strategy and performance, and we’ve heard exactly what they were doing, and what they were starting to do. Therefore, it seems to me that to actually dismiss them in these circumstances, when they were starting on what feels like a very important journey, seems entirely wrong. So, I would like you to answer these specific questions. What did the independent board members do that was so wrong? How did they depart? And I’m following on from what Rhun said, because I’m afraid I’ve also heard of the situation in which they departed. And what confidence do we have that the next tranche of independent members will not feel silenced, having seen the way that the last group were treated? Thank you, diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks. Well, I think it’s really important that people understand that I do have the legal authority to dismiss independent members of the board. So, that’s the first thing: I have that authority, and I can do it immediately, and obviously we checked very carefully before we went down that path.
You talked about them starting on an important journey. Well, you know, they’ve been in targeted intervention for a long time, and prior to that in special measures. It shouldn’t be a journey that’s starting. This has been a journey that’s been ongoing for a very long time. Now, they’ve got some way down the path, but actually it’s the next step that hasn’t been taken. The fact that it has taken so long to get to the point where we’re appointing a new chief executive—. It’s really interesting, actually, just speaking to people in Welsh Government about the differences in terms of the way that the board there responds, the executives there respond. So, in other health boards, other people get on with the job. In Betsi, they wait, they ask for permission, they wait for advice. They need to get on with it. They’re responsible. They’re paid a lot of money to do a job, and they haven’t been doing that. So, the executives are not taking the kind of steps that they should have.
I think the question is not what the independent board members did, but what they didn’t do, and what they didn’t do is the next step, and that’s part of the problem. We needed them to take the next step of really focusing in on, 'So, what are you going to do about the executives?'I think what's important is that people understand that there is a role for independent members to take responsibility, but accountability is key within the system. My role is to set out some goals. This year, I have set objective targets—measurable targets—for chairs, because that is my—. I have so few tools—I am shocked by how few tools I have, as a Government Minister, to effect change in the system. So, what I'm starting to do is to crank up and use the tools that I have at my disposal in a more significant way. But, actually, that's why I'm very keen to have this review of accountability to make sure that it's very clear to everyone where this accountability lies.

Russell George AC: Can I ask, Minister, what are your criteria for taking the health board back out of special measures? I ask that question in the context of—. You said in your statement today, Minister, that your predecessor took the health board out of special measures just before the Senedd election in 2020 because they were taking positive steps towards improvement. Well, I would suggest that the health board remains in special measures until it has demonstrated improvement. If you agree with that statement, therefore, do you disagree with your predecessor—that he was wrong to take the health board out of special measures back in 2020, before the Senedd elections?
Secondly, Minister, the chair and the independent members wrote to the First Minister, and they said, 'We have also previously and repeatedly escalated concerns to the Welsh Government.' They did not receive a response, let alone support, in reply to those escalations. Well, Darren Millar and Rhun ap Iorwerth asked you this question, and I think your response to them was, 'Well, actually, it wasn't sent directly to me or the Welsh Government'—it was for your information or you were copied in. [Interruption.] But, my question is: what you said, Minister, is that if you're copied into e-mails, or you're carbon copied into e-mails, you don't always reply. Well, I don't always reply, but if I was sent something of serious concern, I would certainly reply. So, can I understand why that e-mail was ignored?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, first of all, I think you're right: I think we need criteria for knowing when it is we've reached the point to take people out of special measures. So, I've asked officials to look at that, so that we've got a more objective measure for how we can measure improvement and how we know we've got to the place we need to get to.
I have tried explaining the situation in relation to the letter that you talked about. I did explain that, despite the fact that it was 'for your information', the director general did follow up and had a meeting with the chair as a result of that. I think it's really important that that is understood. Thank you.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Many of us, and I'm sure you're amongst us, will remember learning a saying in primary school, which reminded us that every time we point a finger at somebody, there are always three fingers pointing back at us. I don't think that that's been truer than it is this afternoon, because the past 24 hours have demonstrated to us that you, as a Minister, and this Government are going around and around in circles when it comes to health services in north Wales. Into special measures; out of special measures; back into special measures; chief executives being appointed; chief executives being forced, very often, to move on; new chairs being appointed; new chairs being asked to stand down. We have been here a number of times and things are not improving.
Now, when Mark Polin was appointed, I was confident that if anyone could turn this board around, then he was that person. But the fact that he and his fellow members of the board have failed to do that highlights to me that there are deeper, more systemic problems here, and that means that there needs to be more radical action and that there needs to be more far-reaching action from you, as a Minister, and from this Government. So, will you at least commission a piece of work to look at alternative options in terms of the future of the health board? Perhaps it'll come back and say that what we have now is the best we can have. Right, fair enough, but ask the question and start that process, because if you don't, we will continue to go around and around in circles, and it's your successor who'll be here in a few months explaining why we're still in that position.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. Well, Plaid Cymru's answer to everything is restructuring and more management—[Interruption.] That's what happens. In terms of commissioning a piece of work, no, I'm not going to commission that. I think that the new board will come in, and if they want to look at it, it's up to them, but I won't be commissioning that work. Thank you.

Sam Rowlands MS: Minister, can I thank you for bringing forward today's statement and also for meeting with the north Wales MSs yesterday? I appreciate you taking that time. But I'd still like to echo the comments made by colleagues from across the Chamber, first and foremost, because, as outlined by them already, it's clear that the executive team of Betsi Cadwadladr University Health Board are not delivering the aims of the Welsh Government or were delivering on the aims of the independent members of the board. They're continuing to fail the people of north Wales, and we cannot continue to see this happen. As you'll be aware, and has already been highlighted, we are probably 10 years down the line now of these consistent failures, eight years of which would have been in special measures if the special measures would have continued as they should have done. It's no exaggeration when we talk about this being a life-and-death situation. People's lives are on the line with the health service in north Wales. It's my residents' quality of life that is suffering as a result of poor management of the health board in north Wales. It's my residents that I care about most in this situation.
Minister, you've mentioned that you don't have, you believe, the levers that you need to be able to make the changes that you want to see, so I'd be interested to hear when you think you may get those levers that you need in your capacity as health Minister to rectify this poor situation. In addition to this, Minister, it's clear that politicians from across the political spectrum want to work with the health board to improve the situation for our residents in north Wales. We don't want to stand up here week in, week out saying how bad things are, we want to stand here and be proud of the health service that we have in north Wales. We want to see change happen desperately for our residents in north Wales. So, Minister, how do you believe we can work more closely together to better serve our residents, not just through scrutiny and challenge in this Chamber, which we continue to do and seemingly continue to be ignored as we highlight the issues that we see in north Wales? What structures do you think could be put in place to better enable us as locally elected Members to support and scrutinise the work of the board to help to have the change that we all want to see? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. I think it's clear that the executive team needs a lot of work in Betsi, and I do hope that the next chair and chief executive will understand the importance of that. I've talked about the levers that I don't have, the fact that I cannot dismiss people that I don't employ. I think it's really important that people understand that these people have rights, you need to respect those rights and due process needs to be followed. But this is the beginning of a process, as I've saidtime and again.
There were considerable concerns in relation to Betsi in relation to leadership, management, board effectiveness and governance, organisational culture, service quality, patient safety, operational delivery, leadership and financial management. I think what's important is that, despite all of the issues where we have concerns, we don't talk down Betsi. We've got to be really careful about actually trying to attract new people to work in the health board. I think there are things that we can do. I think the north Wales medical school is a real opportunity for Betsi. I think we could be attracting some significant new people to north Wales as a result of that new medical school. We have the north Wales dental academy. We've now got the '111 press 2' mental health service. All of these things are things where there has been progress. I think it's important that we don't forget that, actually, day in, day out, there are thousands of people who are really benefiting from the health and care that is given on a daily basis to people in north Wales.

Siân Gwenllian AC: We've been here before, of course, but the major, necessary changes were not introduced, and, indeed, poor decisions were made in the previous time in special measures. The board was in special measures when the vascular service in Ysbyty Gwynedd was dismantled in the name of centralisation, and we all know what the upshot of that was. So, the fundamental question is what will be different this time. How much time will you give for that difference to start to reveal itself? I assume, and I very much hope, that you as Minister have set out your timetable for implementing change over a full list of measurable deliverables. Can you confirm that, and what exactly that timetable looks like?
I would suggest that you also need to be willing to say what you will do if improvement isn’t made within a particular timescale. You have to have a plan B, ready to go, because I’m concerned that plan A, which is what has been in place since yesterday, will not bear fruit, and certainly won’t do so swiftly enough. Plaid Cymru has set out its plans for the creation of smaller units, and I’m sure if you followed the advice of Ken Skates and asked people in north Wales to tell you what they would like to see happening, then their answer would be the same. But you have rejected that, and are doing so at the moment, so what exactly is your plan B?
I would also like to know what else—

Siân, you must conclude now.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I will ask one further question. The First Minister, in the question session, mentioned that there were other pieces of information that led you to this announcement yesterday. What is that information? Is all of the information underpinning yesterday’s decision out there in the public domain, or is there more to come?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Siân. I think it’s very important to understand that these changes aren’t going to happen overnight; we’ll have to go through a process. It will take some time to get a new chief executive in place, and I hope that that appointment makes a big difference. I do know that the new chair is very eager to set out a timetable for what he expects to achieve during his initial period, so hopefully we’ll be able to see what he has in mind in that context.
In terms of those pieces of additional information, what we do know is that Healthcare Inspectorate Wales have been in several times, and we’ve seen their reports. We’re aware that the King’s Fund has compiled reports, and there’s the Ernst & Young report, which is something that obviously hasn’t been shared yet, but we do know that that will cause some problems. We know that three suspensions have already happened. We also know that there’s an independent audit, and once again, that hasn’t come to an end yet.

Mark Isherwood AC: After Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board attended the Senedd's Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee last March, I wrote to them as Chair regarding concerns about some of the responses that they provided us with and seeking clarity on certain points. Our letter included that we were disappointed by the lack of ownership and responsibility taken by the executive of the problems at the board, referring to various reports over the previous decade, including Holden, Ockenden, HASCAS and Public Account Committee reports. This letter stated:
'We are also concerned about the ongoing presence of executives and managers at the health board who were implicated in the conclusions of these reports and about their ability to deliver the internal change required.'
In your written statement yesterday, Minister, you stated that you've agreed that it is time for the chair, vice-chair and independent members of the board to step aside. How, therefore, do you respond to the alternative perspective placed on this by the independent members of the board in their letter to the First Minister yesterday, on which north Wales Members were copied? They state:
'We are writing to express our sincere concerns about the future of health services in North Wales following this morning’s meeting with the Minister when we were left with no option but to resign as Independent Members with immediate effect.‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‌‍‌‌‌‌‍'
They said that they are gravely concerned at the Minister's response to the Audit Wales report and that to have focus on independent members rather than the operational executive and their delivery exposes patients across Wales and the organisation to significant risk going forward.
Finally, the Senedd's Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee has consistently highlighted concerns around the oversight of the health board by theWelsh Government. Why have you and your predecessor health Ministers allowed matters to reach this head, when the Public Accounts Committee reported concerns regarding board functionality in its reports on the board published in 2013, in 2016, in 2019—

Mark, you need to conclude now, please.

Mark Isherwood AC: —and the North Wales Community Health Council has also been raising these concerns with you throughout?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I think it's important that you recognised that there was an issue in relation to responsibility on behalf of the executives, and obviously that is something that we're very concerned about. That, I hope, is something that the new chair will undertake in terms of his responsibility. I will be speaking to him to recommend that he reads your report to make sure that he's understood your concerns as a committee as well.
I think it's important to understand also that the Audit Wales report did say that what is needed is a unified and a cohesive response, and a cohesive approach within the board. It was clear to me that that was not going to be possible with the board as it was structured at the moment, and that was one of the reasons why we took the steps that we did. I think the relationships in terms of trust and candour, accountability—. Those were things where there was so much resistance. I think that what's important is that the chair will understand that there is a need to act on the proposals within, or at least the findings of, the Audit Wales report.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: It's clear to everyone now that taking the board out of special measures was a cynical political step, which was done less than three years ago. And in that time, some things have deteriorated: vascular, urology, and emergency services, for example. But, I have a series of questions that constituents in Dwyfor Meirionnydd have asked me to put to you today.
We've been here before, and clearly it didn't work the last time. So, what does the Minister think will be different this time? The Minister has mentioned a change of personnel and mentioned some of the weaknesses that have existed, but is the Minister willing to recognise the role of the independent members in highlighting some of those weaknesses? The fact that the Minister has got rid of the independent members suggests that she thinks that this is where the blame lies, but it's the Minister who appoints these independent members, so will the Minister at least take some responsibility for these difficulties? The independent members are appointed for specific terms. Some are relatively new, but the deep-seated problems in the board go back a decade, so is the Minister willing to accept that there is blame beyond those independent members? Indeed, in this decade, we have seen five chief executives and three chairs, so it's clear that the blame lies beyond these members. Indeed, the one consistent thing throughout this time is a Labour Government, so isn't it time for her and her Government to take responsibility?
You've refused to reorganise because you want to centralise expertise. It's regrettable that I have to remind the Minister that vascular services were centralised during special measures, and look at the mess that was made there. You've often mentioned that this would be too expensive. According to the Minister herself, special measures cost £84 million to the Government last time. Doesn't it therefore make sense to look at reorganisation? This cost would be less than you are currently facing—

Mabon, you have to conclude soon.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: —and would be less disruptive than what is currently happening. When will you accept that the board is too large, is ineffective and needs to be reorganised? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. I'd like to read a message that I had from one of his constituents yesterday: 'Great news. Well done, Eluned. Now we have hope.' That's from one of your constituents as well. I do think it's important also for us to understand that the responsibility does go beyond independent members. I accept that, I've said that time and time again. This is a first step and we need to take the next step and ensure that the people who are acting on behalf of the board and are funded by the board directly do understand that changes are coming. In terms of reorganisation, I've said very clearly that I have no interest in reorganisation, I'd prefer to see that £82 million going to the front-line services rather than reorganising. That's what's happened. I wouldn't want to deviate from that.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you for your statement, this afternoon, Minister, and, indeed, for inviting MSs and MPs to the Welsh Government office in Llandudno Junction yesterday to receive your briefing.
I'm going to be straight with you, Minister, really. The people of the Vale of Clwyd have had enough, and it's not funny—I can see you're smiling there—because they've had years of excuses, with failure after failure from this Labour Government in Cardiff: the closure of 13 beds in Denbigh infirmary; the Tawel Fan report; the Health and Social Care Advisory Services report; Donna Ockenden; the failure to build a north Denbighshire community hospital in Rhyl after 10 years of broken promises; and the scores and scores of ambulances outside Glan Clwyd hospital. All of which occurred under the last round of special measures, Minister, that you're responsible for. And you often come back to me and say, 'Well, I wasn't health Minister at the time and therefore it's not my responsibility, but that doesn't wash, I'm afraid, as you fall under a collective responsibility in Government and have a duty to provide quality healthcare provision across north Wales. So, how are you going to make sure that you get it right this time, Minister? And how are you going to personally make sure that the failures end now? And if you can't improve Betsi Cadwaladr and take accountability, will you reflect on your competence to do your job and consider your position, as this can't go on any more? The people of north Wales are sick to the back teeth of a failing health board and a failing Government here in Cardiff Bay. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks, Gareth. I was smirking because I just thought it was very odd for you to say, 'I'm going to be straight with you,' as if nobody else before you had been straight with me.
I think it's really important that people understand some of the expectations that we will be putting in place in terms of what happens next. There will be specialist advice on board governance and effectiveness. There will be mentoring to the board. There will be specialist HR support for the chair and executive team. There will be increased capacity and expertise in clinical service planning to deliver that transformational reform that we want to see, and there will be work to finalise the improvement plans. So, all of those things are measures that we will be putting in place to support the board, and obviously we have those additional five experts who will be helping out.

And finally, Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Minister, you can fool some of the people all the time, and all the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time, and we are not fools; we are elected Members representing our constituents, and they are not fools either.
Now, the audit report picks up the fact of four chief execs in less than four years. You mentioned your reasoning for taking the board out of special measures, that,
'The health board responded well to the COVID challenges, and we received a number of reports that signalled that the health board were taking positive...steps'.
I certainly haven't seen any of these reports. What I can remember, though, is that, during this period of time, just coming out of the pandemic, but we weren't still out—. Do you not agree with me that it would have been more prudent to have seen more outcomes measurably improved, because the Record of Proceedings is quite clear that, during this period, many of us were raising concerns on a regular basis about all these reports, these damning reports? Why, Minister, did it take a report from the auditor general to make changes to the board when we have known since before 2015 that leadership and governance in this board has failed? Why was the fact that £122 million was not accounted for not enough to trigger special measures? And why was the fact that building safety, whereby carrying out medical treatments in not-fit-for-purpose hospitals, had got worse since 2019 not enough to trigger special measures? People are responsible for this, and it is the executive members. My constituents believe, as I do, that you are ultimately responsible for the many failings in this health board, and that you should take bolder steps than using the independent members as scapegoats. The failings that my colleagues—

Janet, you need to finish now, please.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: The failings that my colleagues have raised have been largely related to executive failings. Now, you've told us here today that you don't have those powers. Well, I'm asking you, Minister, and I don't care what it takes, but you certainly need to get those powers to ensure that you can actually become less detached from a health board that is failing in its ability to deliver safe and appropriate healthcare to many constituents. Colleagues have mentioned how people have died as a result of these failings of the executive board. My final point: if I was the health Minister, believe me, there wouldn't be an executive member still in post. Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Janet. And you're right. Look, it's not an acceptable situation where you've got four CEOs over four years. We need some continuity in this post, which is why—

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: With all due respect, can you call a point of order on a ex-health Minister who failed during their—[Inaudible.]

Eluned Morgan AC: Oh, for goodness' sake. Do you mind if I—?

Wait, no.

Eluned Morgan AC: Sorry.

There will be no point of order. I was about to ask for quiet so that the Minister can be heard, and that's what I'll ask for: quiet so that the Minister can be heard.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you. I took my advice in terms of special measures also from Audit Wales and HIW. So, there's a tripartite system that gives me advice in terms of when I need to step in. So, this is the first time they've said, 'You need to step in.' So, that's quite important as well.
So, just in terms of you mentioned buildings and the situation getting worse. Well, I can tell you that the capital fund has been cut by your Government. By your Government. I would love to spend far more on capital within the NHS, and it's your Government that's cut that funding.
Let me tell you also, and I am going to say it slowly again: I do not have the power to dismiss members of the executive. I do not have those powers. Now, if you want me—you know, what you're suggesting is, 'Right, okay, get those powers'. You honestly want me, directly, to employ 19,000 people in Betsi alone? Apart from the 105,000—[Interruption.] No, no, it's the reality of the way the—. I do not employ those people.

Minister, you do not need to respond to sedentary comments.

Eluned Morgan AC: I do not employ those people directly. Those people have rights. There will be a process, and they need to understand that that process, I'm sure, will be followed.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: My constituents have rights too.

Thank you, Minister.

7. Statement by the Minister for Social Justice: Wales: A community of communities

Item 7, a statement by the Minister for Social Justice—Wales: a community of communities. And I call the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Llywydd. Let me wish everyone a happy St David's Day.

Jane Hutt AC: For many years, the Welsh Government has proudly celebrated Dydd Gŵyl Dewi on the international stage by taking Wales to the world and amplifying everything that's magnificent about our country. This year, we continue that tradition, and in addition to celebrating St David's Day internationally, we recognise the importance of celebrating and marking the day here in Wales too. As a result of a recent meeting with the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to discuss 'Cymraeg 2050', I bring to the Senedd this statement today, a statement highlighting some of our cross-governmental strategies and action plans in the area of social justice and Cymraeg.
Today, we're also celebrating the diversity of communities that makes Wales the country it is today. During my statement, I intend to outline the steps we've already taken, and those we'll take in the future, to create a more equal and prosperous Wales for all—a Wales in which everyone feels a sense of ownership for our language and culture.
Deputy Llywydd, Members will already be aware of the seven well-being goals set out in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. The well-being goals underpin all the Welsh Government's work. Three of the goals in particular are of a strong relevance to social justice and Cymraeg, and today, I want to talk about how those goals must work together. They are, of course:

Jane Hutt AC: A more equal Wales; a Wales of cohesive communities; and a Wales of vibrant culture and thriving Welsh language.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Jane Hutt AC: All our current strategies and action plans in the area of equality and social justice consider the Welsh language within the design and delivery of policy, in the same way that 'Cymraeg 2050' should complement our social justice ambitions. In recent years, the Welsh Government has undertaken substantial action to progress equality, and some of our most notable work includes: launching the 'Advancing Gender Equality in Wales Plan' in 2020; in 2021, we established the disability rights taskforce; in 2022, I was proud to publish our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'; and at the beginning of this month, the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership marked LGBTQ+ history month with the launch of the LGBTQ+ equality action plan.
The Minister for Education and the Welsh Language has repeatedly stated how Cymraeg belongs to us all, and I share his view. This is why we are taking proactive steps to strengthen the connection between 'Cymraeg 2050' and our existing work in the area of social justice. Within the anti-racist Wales action plan, we noted how, and I quote,
'We have an expansionist and inclusive vision for the Welsh language'
and that it can be
'a way of uniting people from different backgrounds. Learning new languages can make us as individuals more open to other cultures'.
So, I’m pleased to reaffirm my commitment to aligning both areas of work, and will continue to work with the Minister to make this a reality.
Seeing communities come together at a time of need fills me with hope for the future. As we mark one year since the invasion of Ukraine, which caused the displacement of the Ukrainian people who could no longer live in their country, I want to share how proud I am to see how communities across Wales have welcomed Ukrainian refugees into their homes and their communities. It's important that Wales is a nation of sanctuary and continues to be. It’s heart-warming to see how families are now integrating into Welsh-speaking communities, with many reports in the media recently highlighting how Ukrainian children are learning Welsh through some of our late immersion centres. Language can be a very powerful integration tool. Projects such as Dydd Miwsig Cymru—Welsh Language Music Day—and the National Centre for Learning Welsh’s 'Croeso i Bawb' resources are important milestones in taking Cymraeg to new audiences and communities. The 'Croeso i Bawb' resource provides opportunities to introduce the Welsh language and Wales to people whose first language is not English, or who do not speak much English. This all contributes to seeing Cymraeg and Welsh culture in a different light, a light that is inclusive and welcoming.

Jane Hutt AC: I would also like to highlight the work of Mudiad Meithrin, who recently launched its AwDUra scheme. This project empowers and enables black, Asian and minority ethnic people to write children's literature in Welsh to address the under-representation of ethnic minority communities in Welsh literature.
We are also currently working with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and Cardiff and Vale College to develop an engagement event to learn from young ethnic minority Welsh speakers. We will use the outputs of the event to shape further actions to ensure that the needs of young ethnic minority speakers are met.
The Urdd also continues to innovate in this area, and I look forward to meeting Nooh, their new diversity and inclusion sport development officer soon, who speaks Welsh confidently only months after learning. He's an inspiration to us all.

Jane Hutt AC: Llywydd, the work that has been already achieved in this area fills me with pride, and I know that many exciting projects are also in the pipeline, but we mustn’t be complacent, as I know we will still have much work to do.
We recently saw how sport can also play a role in achieving our aims. The Football Association for Wales has successfully ignited the nation’s pride and reignited the nation's love of the language, weaving it naturally into announcements and communications, showing us how to use Cymraeg organically in a way that unites us. They recently showcased Wales to the world at the World Cup and seeing Cymraeg and our culture on the international stage highlighted the importance of languages and culture internationally. Around the globe, bilingualism and multilingualism is the norm. It was only last week, on 21 February, that we celebrated International Mother Language Day. The United Nations promotes the fact that,
'Multilingualism contributes to the development of inclusive societies that allow multiple cultures, worldviews and knowledge systems to coexist and cross-fertilize'.
Earlier today, and in line with International Mother Language Day, I was delighted to attend an event in Grangemoor Park. I also met earlier this afternoon with representatives from Bangladesh's High Commissioner's office. We spoke about a range of issues, including how languages can unite communities here in Wales and around the world.

Jane Hutt AC: I started my statement this afternoon by wishing Members a happy St David's Day. Cymraeg and Dydd Gŵyl Dewi belong to us all, and I really do mean that. It belongs to each and every one of us and each and every community across Wales. Let us all celebrate St David's Day, Dydd Gŵyl Dewi, in all of our own unique ways, and let us continue to make Wales a community of communities. Thank you, Llywydd.

Mark Isherwood AC: Of course, we live in a land of communities: from Aberdeen to Aberystwyth, Cumbria to Carmarthen, Cornwall to Conwy, Belfast to Bridgend and Yorkshire to Y Wyddgrug. As we approach St David's Day, you refer to your cross-governmental strategies and action plans in the area of social justice and Cymraeg. Speaking here seven years ago, I noted that
'Asset-based community development is a large and growing movement that considers people as the primary building blocks of sustainable community development.... Building on the skills of local residents, the power of local associations and the support of local institutions...drawing upon existing community strengths to build stronger communities for the future.'
Do you acknowledge this, and, if so, what practical steps are you taking to give voice, choice, control and real power to the people in our communities?
Speaking here six years ago, I referred to the Welsh Government grant-funded 'Valuing place' report by the Young Foundation, based upon research with people in Aberystwyth, Connah's Quay and Port Talbot, which found that establishing a local network to help encourage, train, mentor, coach and connect people together who want to take local action, whatever their skill set or resource, should be a priority. We need to allow for positive development of place that is inclusive and participatory. I also referred then to the Bevan Foundation 'Communities First—Next Steps' document, which found that the Welsh Government's £500 million Communities First programme did not reduce the headline rates of poverty in the vast majority of communities, still less Wales as a whole, and that a new programme should be co-produced by communities and professionals and not be top-down, i.e. by local authorities, that it should be based on a clear theory of change, building on people's and communities' assets not deficits, and that local action should be led by established community-based organisations with a strong track record of delivery that have significant community engagement. Did the Welsh Government accept the findings of these and other similar reports, and, if so, where is the change and how is this being monitored?
How do you respond to the Carnegie Trust statement, that the enabling-state approach is about recognising that
'government, alongside driving the performance of public services, should enable communities to do what they do best',
where communities
'are best-placed to bring a wealth of local knowledge and collective energy to the decisions that affect them'?
What consideration have you given to the January 2022 Wales Co-operative Centre discussion paper, 'Communities Creating Homes', which stated Wales is trailing other nations in the UK when it comes to community ownership rights, adding that the policies in Wales do not offer quite the same empowerment as enjoyed by communities in England or, particularly, Scotland, as they either focus solely on assets and facilities owned by public bodies or necessitate the direct involvement of a public body to implement the power rather than co-production?
What consideration have you given to the February 2022 Institute of Welsh Affairs's 'Our Land: Communities and Land Use' report, which found that Welsh communities are the least empowered in Britain, and community groups in Wales told them about an arbitrary, demoralising scenario with little real process for communities to take ownership of public or private assets?
Funded via a lottery endowment, Building Communities Trust runs the Invest Local programme in 13 local communities across Wales, strengthening their localities in ways that communities themselves see fit, and enabling community groups to provide local social infrastructure and support their communities. However, Building Communities Trust found people in Wales feel increasingly less able to influence decisions affecting their local area. Questioning you here last October, I referred to research by Building Communities Trust with community groups across Wales, showing that they often feel overlooked and under-resourced by local and national government. When I asked you to respond to their statement that they believe there is a big opportunity for Welsh Government to develop better support for community-led, long-term local approaches in Wales, you replied that you'd had a really useful meeting with them the previous week to talk about community policy and to talk about our community asset reach. What practical changes therefore, if any, have you since introduced?
Finally, the Scottish Government has announced a £27 million investing in communities fund over three years, with over 100 initiatives developed by local people, aiming to tackle community poverty. So, finally, what, if any, action are you taking to support similar projects developed by local people in Wales in which everyone can feel a sense of ownership for the language, culture, economic performance and social well-being of Wales?

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Mark Isherwood, and, indeed, this statement is about a community of communities, which we believe Wales is, surely, in every respect, and particularly I think in relation to our commitment to listening, learning and working with our communities in order to achieve the goals and policies that actually meet the needs of our people. That's why, indeed, I started the statement by referring to the well-being of future generations Act, the seven well-being goals, but also to the ways of working, of course, in terms of the well-being of future generations. This is entirely relevant to the points that you're making in terms of our commitment to engaging with communities and those who use our public services, in particular, in developing that very—. So often you have encouraged and espoused the co-production approach to making sure that we do reach out to our communities to engage with them.
You know that we are developing community policy for Wales, and I'm really pleased that, through the public services boards, some pilots are now developing in Pembrokeshire, Gwynedd and Ynys Môn. And it is the public services boards—which, actually, of course, are very cross-governmental in terms of their statutory responsibilities and linking, of course, to the well-being of future generations legislation—that actually see for their benefit that they can engage with communities at the closest and most local level to ensure that they can get their policies right and in accord with their objectives.
I think it is very important that we learn the lessons from all of those reports you've talked about, including Building Communities Trust, who I have been working with to ensure that we get the movement across Government for community policy, developing with my colleagues the Minister for Climate Change, Julie James, and the Minister for Finance and Local Government. We can learn the lessons from not only Communities First, but then successor engagements through Building Communities Trust, to ensure that we can move forward in terms of the asset transfer discussions and debates that we've had very fruitfully in this Senedd.
I would finally like to say I do believe that our community facilities programme is one of the most important ways in which the Welsh Government can directly fund and support community facilities and community groups and organisations across Wales. I'm very pleased to be announcing some more allocation of that funding very shortly, which I think will benefit Members across this Chamber in terms of the impact.
Just finally, I want to bring this back to the fact that this is an opportunity today to link this to St David's Day, and all of what that means to us, particularly in relation to 'Cymraeg 2050'. We recognise that this is about language, culture and we've actually—. It's not just about investing in Welsh-medium education, which is the £7 million that the Minister for Education and Welsh Language is putting into that, but it's also, actually, looking at ways in which we can embed language into our communities. That's why 'Cymraeg 2050' is so important, and it is about a vibrant future for our language, as set out in the well-being of future generations Act.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Minister, and happy St David’s Day to everyone, for tomorrow, too. Unfortunately, it’s not a national bank holiday, as it should be, but we still very much hope for that. Sam Kurtz obviously agrees, so please persuade your Government in the UK to allow us to have a bank holiday. Hopefully, if there’s another Government after the next general election, they will allow us here in Wales to have a bank holiday to celebrate St David’s Day.
Now, you’ve noted, of course, the host of things that are happening in terms of celebrating St David’s Day, but we also have to recognise that it’s a number of volunteers that are driving this at the moment, and we are missing opportunities, important opportunities, and we should be providing more support and promoting what’s available, in the same way as other nations can take advantage of national holidays.
I'm pleased to see the Minister referring to Wales as a community of communities, which was central, of course, to the vision of Gwynfor Evans, and Plaid Cymru has a vision of Wales as a community of interconnected communities that are robust, prosperous, healthy and environmentally sound, which includes ensuring that the ability to learn and use the Welsh language is open to everyone, whatever their circumstances.
It’s therefore good to hear of the Government’s ambitions in terms of co-ordinating the social justice work with the work of promoting the Welsh language. It’s important to acknowledge that promoting the Welsh language is a social justice issue, and there’s a strong relationship, therefore, between the different portfolios. However, there is a need to see specific targets going hand in hand with these objectives, and the truth is, as was demonstrated at the end of last year with the census results, that the objectives of 'Cymraeg 2050' are further away now than they were when those objectives were originally set.
For the second decade on the trot, the percentage of Welsh speakers has declined, reaching the lowest ever level of 17.8 per cent. This equates to almost 24,000 fewer Welsh speakers as compared to 10 years ago, and a loss of 44,000, which equates to the population of Merthyr Tydfil, since 2001. This should also be considered in the context of the fact that only around 20 per cent of our children are currently in Welsh-medium education. It’s difficult, therefore, to see how the Government’s aim of having an

Heledd Fychan AS: ‘expansionist and inclusive vision for the Welsh language’

Heledd Fychan AS: can be delivered meaningfully without a radical change in the way the Welsh language is taught in all schools in Wales.
In addition to this, the Government needs to recognise that the foundations for expanding equal access for people of all backgrounds to the Welsh language is fragile at the moment. For example, there is a lack of Welsh-speaking teachers being trained—only 250 a year, according to the most recent Government figures, compared with the 500 and more needed to deliver the objectives of 'Cymraeg 2050'. There are also the latest Universities and Colleges Admissions Service figures, which show a serious decline in the number of applicants in Wales for teacher training courses for the next academic year. There is a real risk that this will have a significant impact on the number of Welsh-speaking teachers over the short and long term.
We of course welcome the news about refugees, such as those from Ukraine, having the opportunity to learn Welsh through the Croeso i Bawb programme and the immersion centres, and we’ve been delighted to see that in the media and so on, and we’ve met some of those people and seen how they have been able to become part of the community and to contribute through the medium of Welsh; we’ve seen the excellent work done by the Urdd and so on. But does the Minister acknowledge the need to ensure that these aren’t temporary measures, and the importance of ensuring that everyone in Wales has an opportunity to take advantage of these resources?
In addition to this, we need to balance this good news with the context of the welcome centres for refugees closing across Wales. What impact will this decision to close the welcome centres for those from Ukraine have on their access to the Welsh language? Yes, the Welsh language belongs to everybody, but there is more that we can do to ensure that everyone has the right to learn and use the language too.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Heledd Fychan, for your very important questions.

Jane Hutt AC: I just want to start by commenting on the bank holiday question. Of course, it’s not a devolved matter, but we’ve asked the UK Government on more than one occasion, as colleagues will know, to designate the day as a bank holiday, or give us the power to do so. Unfortunately, so far these requests have been rejected.
But it’s important that we recognise what is going to be happening on St David’s Day. It’s a time when we focus activities throughout Wales. We're focusing on mobilising communities tomorrow, here in Wales, to celebrate St David's Day. We're celebrating everything Welsh using the 'random acts of Welshness' social media campaign, so I hope everyone will engage with that. The campaign is ahwyl-filled social media celebration of our nation, and, of course, that showcases, as you've said, Heledd, the good things we do for each other, for our communities and for our world. In fact, all of your questions comment on those points—the good things that we do for each other, for our communities and for our world, because Wales is, and must be, a community of interconnected communities. I do believe that the statement today can help in terms of the contributions. It can help us and assist us, as a Welsh Government, in making Wales a community of communities.

Jane Hutt AC: I think it is very important to recognise that 'Cymraeg 2050' is a strong commitment that our language belongs to us all, and we've been very clear that the Welsh Government is fully committed to the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy. It has those aims to reach a million Welsh speakers, but also, equally crucial, doubling daily use of the language. I think my role—I thank you for recognising the importance of this connection with the social justice agenda, because when I've met with the Minister for Education and Welsh Language, as all my colleagues have in the Welsh Government, it has enabled us to look again at everything that we're doing and what we can do in terms of taking this forward. For me, it has been very much looking at it from a social justice perspective, in terms of, for example, migrant integration. We've commented on that in terms of our being a nation of sanctuary.
Migrant integration and inclusion are crucial, and if we actually recognise that Wales is currently home to around 200,000 migrants, these members of our community already converse in at least their second language, if not third or fourth. When migrants are speaking Welsh, it's a great illustration of community integration, and we are looking at how this can be supported and how we ensure that integration happens from day one.
I'm going, in a couple of weeks' time, to the Nation of Sanctuary Awards, and there are awards for learners of languages—one for the English language and the other for the Welsh language—and I do want to say today, Llywydd, that we remember and congratulate, in 2019, the Welsh learner award was won by Mohamad Karkoubi, who at the time lived in Aberystwyth—so I particularly mention it, Llywydd—with his wife and their three children after fleeing the civil war in their home country. He won the Welsh learner award. Mr Karkoubi, from Aleppo, has been learning Welsh twice a week since September, which has helped him in his job as a blacksmith in Tregaron. Mr Karkoubi said,
'I really enjoy learning Welsh. The language has helped me and my family to feel part of the community in which we live.'
I think this is where, clearly, the commitment to Welsh-medium education is crucially important, but there's a consultation on how we strengthen Welsh-speaking communities. You mentioned teaching. There's a 10-year plan to increase the number of Welsh-speaking teachers and funding for online taster courses for refugees and asylum seekers to learn Welsh without needing to be fluent in English. We have a lot to learn from those who are embracing, and engaging with, the Welsh language. There's funding to give young people the skills, qualifications and work experience to start a career in the Welsh-medium childcare sector, which, as you say, is so crucially important.
Just finally from me, in terms of Ukrainian refugees and integration within Welsh language communities, we have a team Wales effort. Yesterday, we had a wonderful event, where we were actually marking the grim milestone of the invasion of Ukraine by Putin, but we were there to, actually, acknowledge the fantastic generosity of host families and households over the last year, who've risen to help us support over 6,500 Ukrainians who now live in Wales. Many are working and their children are at school—they're learning Welsh—and, of course, we also aresupporting them through not just our hosts, but through our welcome centres. Just to assure colleagues and to assure Heledd, from your question, that we are working—. We've closed many welcome centres over the last year. In fact, the first one we closed was the Urdd, and it was a natural closure after three, four months of intensive support, initial temporary support, and then to enable Ukrainians to move on. What an immersion in Welsh that was, in terms of the Urdd. But in all our welcome centres, we are providing that wraparound support and, indeed, as many of them have moved on out of welcome centres, they're certainly being closed in a sensitive way to ensure that everybody at a welcome centre has a home to move on to, and I can give that assurance here today.
But for them, as well, it'll be moving on into communities, into towns, cities and villages in Wales, into work and to continue with schools. But, as we know, so many of them, of course, look to the time when they might be able to return to Ukraine and to be with their families who they've left at home. But for many more, Wales is their home.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I just thank the Minister for her statement? Like the Minister, seeing communities come together at a time of need fills me with hope for the future. As we mark one year since the illegal invasion of Ukraine by the Russians, which caused displacement of many Ukrainian people who could no longer live in their country, I am also proud to see how communities across Wales have welcomed Ukrainian refugees into their homes and into their communities. It is important that Wales is a nation of sanctuary. Will the Minister join with me in congratulating Swansea on Swansea being a city of sanctuary and the support that's given to refugees in Swansea? I want to highlight just one example of kindness towards Ukrainian refugees in my own constituency, where the money collected in a local pub quiz at the Midland Hotel, Morriston was given to support Ukrainian children staying in a local hotel.
But, as we know, multilingualism is common in many countries, and also in communities across Wales, including in Swansea. I think the problem we've got is that we have the British view that there's only one language anybody needs to know, and that's English, and if they don't understand it first time, shout a bit louder. Does the Minister know the number of multilingual people we actually have in Wales?

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, Mike Hedges, and, yes, can I say how proud we are of Swansea as a city of sanctuary? We have other cities of sanctuary across Wales, including Cardiff, of course, but also, Holywell, I think, is a town of sanctuary. We've got town, community and county councils as well. But also, when I came to Swansea to congratulate the university and Gower College, who are also colleges and universities of sanctuary, and that, of course, has an impact on every aspect of life. And to congratulate those who raised that funding at the Midland Hotel event, raising money for families and children.
I think this is just, again, an example of the kindness and commitment to volunteering that takes place in Wales, the community of communities. It is about the ways in which people have responded to the invasion of Ukraine by Putin, by showing that support. But also, I hope today as a nation of sanctuary, we can all agree that we send a message of hope, solidarity and respect to our Ukrainian community members.
It is true that we're a multilingual nation. Let's recognise this today. I can't give you the exact figures in terms of the numbers and the languages that are spoken. I spoke of the 200,000 migrants that we have who converse in at least their second, third or fourth language. But can I just say, finally, that one of the goals of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' is to gain a better understanding of the lived experience of the 10,000 Welsh speakers from ethnic minority communities, to inform actions and interventions to eliminate racism in Wales? I think that is important, that we understand these connections today, and for me, as Minister for Social Justice, I'm very keen to, again, share with Members the 10,000 Welsh speakers from ethnic minority communities, as we celebrate those 10,000 people.

Thank you, Minister.

8. Statement by the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd: Antimicrobial Resistance (AMR)—Progress of the Wales Five-year Animal and Environment Plan

The next item is item 8, a statement by the Minister for rural affairs on antimicrobial resistance and the progress of the Wales five-year animal and environment plan. I call on the Minister for rural affairs to make the statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Antibiotics are a fundamental foundation for modern healthcare systems, enabling us to effectively treat most bacterial infections, in both people and animals. Their discovery and development have revolutionised not only healthcare, but also wider society. Infections and procedures that would have been fatal in the past are now treated routinely. Antibiotics are a precious resource, and we need to safeguard them for the well-being of our future generations.
Antibiotics occur naturally in nature, as does the ability of bacteria to become resistant to them. For example, within 20 years of its introduction in the 1940s, more than 80 per cent of strains of Staphyloccus aureus had become resistant to penicillin. Resistance to antibiotics is a property of the bacteria, not their human or animal hosts, largely driven by the use of antibiotics themselves, and the threat it poses is real. As resistance can be spread between bacteria and some resistant organisms infect both people and animals, we need to address antibiotic use holistically in both people and animals.
AMR control also needs to address potential routes of spread through the environment and through the food chain. Leaving AMR unchecked would have wide-ranging and extremely costly impacts, not only in financial terms, but also in terms of public and animal health, as well as trade, food security and environmental and socioeconomic development. Already, AMR is estimated to cause 700,000 deaths each year globally. This figure is estimated to rise to 10 million by 2050 if no action is taken. People and animals will suffer longer illnesses and more deaths, and it will increase pressure on health services for humans and animals. AMR is primarily a threat for people; however, losing effective antibiotics through resistance would have grave consequences for animal health, animal welfare and food security.
The World Health Organization produced a global action plan on AMR, endorsed at the World Health Assembly in 2015. Subsequently, the World Organisation for Animal Health published their strategy on AMR and the prudent use of AMRs in animals. Here in the UK, there is currently a 20-year vision and five-year national action plan, both published in 2019. These strategies have helped shape our approach in Wales. In 2019, I established the Wales Animal and Environment Antimicrobial Resistance Delivery Group. The group is made up of representatives from the farming industry, the veterinary profession, leading academics, Public Health Wales, and Government officials.
In July 2019, I published a five-year animal and environment AMR implementation plan for Wales, which was recommended by the newly established delivery group. The Welsh plan has five major objectives. An important focus is on infection prevention and control. Keeping animals healthy through good care and management reduces the need to use antibiotics. Another key focus is on ensuring when antibiotics do have to be used, they are used responsibly, minimally and in ways that reduce the risk of the development of resistance.
We have applied the 'one health' concept to our approach. Human health and animal health are interdependent and are bound to the health of the environment in which they exist. We have brought together experts in public, animal and environmental health to work together, sharing their experience and expertise. I believe this approach has been successful and has placed Wales towards the forefront of efforts to control AMR.
Within the Welsh Government, the quality and nursing directorate are currently undertaking a review of the AMR national action plan targets published in 2019. The review is predominantly focused on human health; however, the Chief Veterinary Officer for Wales has contributed to this review with an assessment of the NAP targets regarding animal and environment health. AMR has also been identified as one of the key priorities for our 10-year Wales animal health and welfare framework. A 'one health' approach is fundamental, not just for AMR control, but for our goal of a healthy Wales.
I would like to inform the Senedd of some of the specific work I have commissioned. To support delivery approaches on the ground, I made £4 million of rural development plan funding available to focus on the control of AMR in animals and the environment. Arwain DGC Cymru were successful in their application to deliver a range of important projects to control AMR and promote animal health. The project, launched in October 2021, is currently delivering a number of activities, many of which are being piloted here in Wales for the first time.The project is leading the way on capturing antibiotic usage data for beef, sheep and dairy sectors across Wales. This is an important step as we need to understand patterns of antibiotic use in order to establish a baseline and to target reduction of the most high-risk uses. The information is of great interest to the whole food chain, and this work will put our producers in a good position to meet market demands. Acting and delivering now will significantly help demonstrate how Welsh produce is produced responsibly and safely.
Some of the projects being developed under Arwain DGC also build upon progress made as part of the Arwain Vet Cymru project. Staff at the new Aberystwyth University veterinary school established the first group of veterinary prescribing champions in the UK, who are leading work in their practices and among their clients to ensure antibiotics are used responsibly. The project has received widespread recognition and garnered some prestigious awards. The project's lead, based at the veterinary school in Aberystwyth, was awarded the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons Impact Award for this work. Our vet prescribing champions are also developing important guidelines on antibiotic selection for use by vets, similar to resources available to NHS GPs—a first for Wales.
There are many other groundbreaking strands of the Arwain DGC project, and further information can be found on their website. I would encourage all Members to have a look. In little over a year, Arwain DGC is already receiving a great amount of recognition, not just across the UK but further afield. In recognition of their success, I’m pleased to confirm Arwain DGC has been shortlisted for three separate entries as part of the Antibiotic Guardian awards. I wish them the best of luck for when the results are announced, later this year.
It is clear the control of AMR cannot be done solely by Government. The control of infectious diseases and of the antibiotics used to treat them are in the hands of animal keepers and their vets. We, therefore, need those people, and the scientific experts, to work together and with us. Therefore, I’m pleased to confirm I've allocated an additional £2.5 million to support the continuation of delivery efforts for the next two years here in Wales.
In conclusion, Llywydd, I want to emphasise the relevance of AMR control to the safety and well-being of future generations, in Wales and around the world. Our work on AMR control is an excellent example of how forward-looking and multidisciplinary approaches, with the Welsh Government working constructively alongside partners in the private sector, can deliver the goals of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, in this case a prosperous Wales, a resilient Wales, a healthier Wales, and a globally responsible Wales. I am determined Wales continues to make a full contribution to the control of AMR. Diolch.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful for advance sight of this afternoon's statement and I refer Members to my register of interests. It's vital that we are exceptionally clear about the risks that AMR, antimicrobial resistance, poses to modern society, be that on farm or in a healthcare setting. This risk poses an existential threat to both humans and animals, and so we must ensure that this Government is implementing an action plan that is adaptable, holistic and intrinsic in its approach. In compromising an animal's ability to successfully control and intercept bacterial infections, AMR removes that natural ability to withstand contagion, the consequences of which, as the Minister has stated, go far beyond the farm gate. If we fail at counteracting this, we not just risk the decimation of animal health, but the collapse of food supply chains, communities left without income and the terminal decline of antibiotic resistance in other species, namely us humans. Given the threat that this poses, I'm pleased to note the Minister's intentions this afternoon.
The Minister's plan, paired with the UK's five-year AMR national action plan, is a critical step in the right direction, one that sees us working with industry to phase out the mass use of antibiotics. And let's be clear, the industry is already making significant progress. UK use of antibiotics in livestock has fallen by as much as 50 per cent in the last few years. Welsh farmers are making changes to their livestock protocols, reducing their reliance on antibiotics by developing sustainable safeguards for animal health. And Arwain DGC are working with and supporting Welsh vets to develop and utilise novel technology to explore biosecurity and precision solutions.
All parts of the agricultural sector, from farmer to vet, are working with one another to develop an AMR prevention strategy through the application of new technology, data gathering, and improved understanding—a science-led decision-making process that we ought to be supporting, enhancing and replicating. In fact, a key component within the Welsh Government's 2019 five-year implementation plan for Wales was to do just this, investing in and supporting innovation, enhancing laboratory capacity and using data to optimise the specific, limited and responsible use of antimicrobials. Given that we already have an established scientific team at Aberystwyth University's Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences, IBERS, what thought has the Minister given to incorporating them into the Arwain DGC project to help achieve the target set out in the 2019 action plan? Indeed, it's important we also recognise the advancements that have already been made, efforts that have proven to be successful and should be supported, and so I'm pleased to note your intention to allocate an additional £2.5 million to support the continuation of delivery efforts. I would be interested, however, in receiving further clarification on the source of this funding and whether it has been allocated from the rural development programme.
Lastly, with the Welsh Government's new chief veterinary officer due to come into office shortly next month, I would like to know what consideration the Minister has given to the CVO's expertise in this matter and whether his appointment brings with him a new way of thinking. To end, I would like to reiterate the Minister's closing remarks. Our work on AMR, that of industry and Government, is an exceptional example of why multidisciplinary approaches are key to developing successful action plans. This blueprint that the Minister and Welsh Government have followed in relation to AMR is commendable and has delivered results. The use of science, technology, innovation and being brave in decision making has helped Wales lead in AMR research and development: a blueprint that merits being replicated as we tackle further challenges within the agricultural sector. Diolch, Llywydd.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Sam, for your very positive response to the report. I think you're right. You do have to be very brave, and certainly when I was health Minister it was an area that I was really keen to look at. I remember we had a very small project on one hospital to see how we could reduce antibiotic use, and I think you have to have that sort of focus on a small area to then see how you can roll out best practice, and that's absolutely something we've done.
I think in Professor Christianne Glossop we had somebody who was very keen to champion it, and certainly the interim CVO has carried on that work. He chairs a UK group on the surveillance of AMR in animals. You ask about the new CVO, who is due to start next week, actually, and will he bring specific expertise. I'm not aware of anything, but currently he's the deputy CVO in the UK and obviously we do work very closely with the UK Government around AMR. They've got a national plan. We've got a national plan. It's really important that we obviously collaborate, so I look forward to seeing what he does bring to the table. But I think it is really important that we continue to have that focus. Obviously the plan that we have from 2019 takes us up to 2024, and we're looking at what changes we can expect with the new implementation plan that the UK Government are bringing forward. That plan will shape our approach here in Wales, so I'm assuming that the new CVO will help us, as we've already started to look at our successor plan going forward. I think it's really important that we play to our strengths. We have unique circumstances, of course, in Wales that need to be looked at too.
You ask about IBERS. Again, I mentioned the new veterinary school that we have in Aberystwyth. I actually haven't had any discussions with IBERS in relation to this, but I will certainly ensure that officials do if we think it would be worthwhile. Around the £2.5 million, we're looking at how interested parties can assess that funding going forward, because we've announced that for the next two years. That is work in progress, and obviously further details will be announced.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: I welcome this statement today, because AMR is having a detrimental impact on our farms and on public health. Indeed, by 2050, it is estimated that AMR will cause 10 million deaths across the world, and will cost $100 trillion to the world economy. So, as we consider this, what economic assessment has the Government made of the impact of AMR on the agricultural sector in Wales? And what assessment has been made of the impact on Welsh public health? The results of Arwain DGC are to be welcomed. It appears that the focus on reducing the use of antibiotics through training, technology and data collection has proven to be effective.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: For instance, lamb farms have benefited from tightened disinfection protocols and placing greater emphasis on the quality and timeliness of colostrum feeding, as well as targeted selective treatment in lambs. On cattle farms, the trialled use of bolus technology has provided farmers with an early warning system, alerting them to potential infection in a cow when it is in heat or the early stages of calving, and any other health matters such as mastitis or lameness, enabling them to act before the disease develops and the cow reaches the stage where it needs antibiotic treatment. I’d be interested to hear more from the Minister, and in greater detail, what the main takeaways from the project are, and if, or how, the solutions might be scaled up to yield more broad-ranging results for more farms in Wales.
The Animal and Environment Antimicrobial Resistance Delivery Group met last March, and having reviewed the discussion, I have some questions regarding antimicrobial resistance in Wales that I believe the Minister must respond to. It was evident that there were concerns around the impact of pharmaceutical products and untreated sewage in our watercourses and our marine environment. In this regard, I’m curious to hear what assessment the Welsh Government has made of the impact of pharmaceutical material and untreated sewage in our watercourses on antimicrobial resistance in Wales, and how the Welsh Government aims to approach the issue.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Of course, it is a complex matter, and it is necessary to approach this from many perspectives. We must promote good hygiene practices to prevent the spread of disease, and we must promote the responsible use of antibiotics. It is the overuse and misuse of antibiotics that drives antimicrobial resistance. We must, therefore, ensure that the use of antibiotics is limited to necessary doses only, and that they are only used in accordance with veterinary advice. We must also look to promote alternative medicine, such as probiotics, prebiotics, and injections. But the responsibility does not rest solely on the shoulders of our farmers. The Government needs to show leadership.
Therefore, the Government must provide support and resources to ensure that farmers have the ability to act in accordance with the best practices in terms of hygiene and welfare in order to make the necessary changes. I welcome the announcement of £2.5 million by the Government to continue the efforts for two further years. But I wonder whether the Minister could confirm whether this is new money, or money that's been redirected within the current envelope of the agricultural department, and whether the Minister could answer Sam's question as to whether this is from RDP funding.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. It is new money. As I say, more details will be worked up, and it's from that programme.
You ask about the assessment in relation to our sewage. That wouldn't be a piece of work that, obviously, my department would do, but Public Health Wales, I know, is doing some extensive work to address AMR in Wales. I mentioned that we're applying 'one health', because it's very important that we look at it within the health of people and also the health of our animals. Officials do work very closely with public health colleagues, and public health officials actually make up part of our animal environment AMR delivery group, because I think that it is really important that they don't work in silos, and they do work collaboratively together.
I think you made a very important point about Arwain DGC, because, for me, there's various strands of that. For instance, one of the strands is they raise awareness of the importance of responsible antibiotic usage and encourage best practice, and that includes responsible disposal, so I suppose that goes to a bit of your first point as well. There's a strand that focuses on capturing usage data. What I would really like to have—. Sam Kurtz referred to over a 50 per cent reduction in the use of antibiotics since 2014—that's across the UK. I can't find out what that proportion is in Wales at the current time, so there is a strand, as I say, of the project that does focus on catching that, because I think it would be really good that we have that specific information for Wales on that subject in the very near future.
I think it is really important to say that, of course, sometimes, antibiotics are the only treatment, and that's why we have to protect—. And I think you did make a really important point there that we know that those antibiotics are being used in absolutely the right way.

Jenny Rathbone AC: Thank you very much, Minister, for this very important statement. I think it's really important that we all realise that, unless we change our ways, we are all going to be in danger of dying from the simplest intervention, for example, if we were to get an infection, break our arm, or some other thing. It would take medicine back to the nineteenth century really. So, this could hardly be more important.
As you say, infection prevention and control is absolutely essential, and I wanted to look at where you want to target reduction of the most high-risk uses. Obviously, I immediately thought about the life of the chicken—these thousands of chickens in sheds, and whether antibiotic use is routine for trying to control infections, because, as with any species, if you pack people together in a small space, an infection by one animal or human will quickly spread elsewhere if it isn't properly ventilated. So, I just wondered whether we can really afford to go on rearing animals in this highly packed far too closely together environment, in order to, obviously, feed the enthusiasm of both producers and consumers for cheap chicken.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. Information about sector-specific uses is published annually in the veterinary AMR and sales surveillance report, and if you look at it, you will see that, I think, the poultry and the pig sectors are the two sectors that have the highest uses of antibiotics currently. But I don't believe it's helpful to view the issue solely from that perspective; I think it's important to take the holistic approach to the problems, which I referred to, prioritising concerns as and when they occur. But I think it's important to remember that we're not restricting the use of antibiotics; what we are trying to do is make sure that we use them when they are genuinely required. But I think, as I say, you can see that the poultry sector—that data is very available. So, it could be that that is an area that we will need to look at further if that is, indeed, the case.

Thank you, Minister.

9. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership: Fair Work: Annual Progress and Priorities

The next item is item 9, a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services on fair work and annual progress and priorities, and I call on the Deputy Minister, Hannah Blythyn.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch. In 2018, the then Welsh Government established the Fair Work Commission, which subsequently made a number of recommendations back in 2019. Since then, the world and work as we know it has changed, but despite these challenges, we have made significant progress on the commission's recommendations. It's important to be transparent about what we have done to date and that is why, to coincide with this statement, I have today published a progress report for the first time. Alongside this, I want to focus on key areas of progress in the past year alone. Firstly, our work to promote trade unions and the value of being part of a trade union to workers, workplaces and Wales. Secondly, the foundations that we are putting into place for social partnership and fair work in sectors where there are long-standing and recognised concerns about working conditions. And thirdly, the steps forward we have seen on the real living wage adoption and accreditation.
Our work to promote trade unions and trade unionism is driven by the firm view of this Welsh Government that trade unions are fundamental to fair work. For workers, we believe that being in a trade union is the best way to protect rights at work, improve pay, terms and conditions, and ensure that worker voice is heard. For employers, we believe trade unions are resourceful partners in identifying and resolving workplace issues, in improving health and safety, in supporting workplace learning, and in enabling effective employee engagement.
For Wales, we believe that trade unions are central to the fabric of our nation and a force for good. We will continue to raise awareness of the role of trade unions, promote the benefits of being in a trade union, and be clear on the value of employers and trade unions working together constructively and with mutual respect. We do this in a variety of ways, from our messaging around Heart Unions Week just a fortnight ago, by way of well-established and valued programmes like the Wales Union Learning Fund, which supports work-based skills, and through developing new and exciting initiatives like the Unions and the World of Work pilot.
Building on earlier Welsh Government-backed campaigns to raise awareness of rights and responsibilities in the workplace, the unions and the world of work project has been developed in social partnership with trade unions, teachers and schools. Working with the Wales TUC, the project will support the delivery of careers and work-related experiences—CWRE—an integral part of the new Curriculum for Wales. Through the pilot, a range of resources are being made available to secondary schools across Wales, with the aim of empowering the next generation of workers and employers and entrepreneurs to have a better understanding of employment rights, the role of trade unions and the impact of collective voice in addressing issues in the workplace and beyond.
Our progressive approach recognises the legitimate and necessary role that trade unions play. This stands in sharp contrast to what we see from the UK Government, encapsulated in their pernicious Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill, the damaging impact of which we oppose. In Wales, we typically have amongst the highest rates of trade union membership when compared with other UK countries and the English regions, and figures published last year show that, in 2021, the proportion of employees in Wales who were trade union members rose by 3.7 percentage points to 35.6 per cent, the highest level since 2014. The corresponding figure fell in other countries of the UK over the same period. Whilst this looks impressive relative to the rest of the UK, we contrast less favourably against international best practice. I want to see sustained improvement in levels of trade union density, trade union presence and trade union coverage in Wales, and this Government will continue to do all we can to support this.
Turning now to the foundations we are laying for social partnership and fair work in social care and retail. The Social Care Fair Work Forum is a prime example of the difference a social-partnership approach can make in practice. It advised us on the implementation of the real living wage, and it is now addressing wider working conditions in the sector. I know that our partnership approach will place us on a firmer footing in addressing some of those challenges in the weeks and months ahead. We've taken the concept of the Social Care Fair Work Forum and applied a similar approach to the retail sector, with a social partnership forum bringing together partners from across this particular sector to develop the retail action plan. A draft of the plan was discussed at the latest retail forum meeting earlier today and we expect to publish that plan in the coming weeks. We believe that this model can be deployed in other sectors, and whilst we recognise that this approach does not equate to the sectoral collective bargaining that would drive up standards consistently and at scale, it does however represent what is possible through our levers and it can lead to positive and lasting change. Not least, it can help develop sector-wide benchmarks and it can help to put in place footings that can be built upon, because, relative to many other European nations, sectoral collective bargaining across the UK is weak.
The final area that I want to report on today is the real living wage. The real living wage is not the defining factor of fair work, but it is important in providing a baseline for an hourly rate aligned to meeting the basic costs of living. We have a record number of organisations that are real-living wage accredited—almost 500. The latest data for 2021 shows that nearly 70 per cent of people in employment in Wales earn at least the real living wage, with this measure seeing an overall increase over recent years. We have shown leadership in implementing our programme for government commitment to introduce the real living wage in social care. We've provided £43 million to local authorities and health boards this financial year to fund a real-living wage uplift, and we've committed an estimated £70 million in the coming financial year. But, as always, there is more to do.
So in closing, I want to just briefly set out some priorities for the year ahead. We will work with social partners and other stakeholders to improve the reach and impact of the economic contract and the code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains. We will support the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill through its legislative scrutiny and develop the accompanying guidance to make the most of its impact on public services, procurement, fair work and wider well-being. We will continue making absolutely clear to the UK Government that the race to the bottom on workers' rights is neither in the interest of workers nor Wales. And whilst fair work spans both devolved and non-devolved areas that impacts on what we can do and how we do it, the Welsh Government is committed to using every lever that we have to promote and enable fair work. So, across these and other priorities in the coming year, we will continue to work collectively for a better deal for workers and Wales. Diolch.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement and for your advanced copy.
As always, I'm disappointedby the ideological narrative that comes from this Welsh Government, particularly in your remarks regarding the minimum service levels Bill. Because as you know, Deputy Minister, the International Labour Organization, which the TUC subscribes to, supports in principle minimum service levels during strike action. Whilst not exactly the same, there is minimum service legislationin France, Germany and other European countries. However, I acknowledge your distaste for any legislation that looks to ensure that the appropriate number of people needed to support public safety during strikes is in the hands of elected and accountable Ministers, with access to the appropriate information and data, rather than given to the trade union puppet masters that control the Labour Party's purse strings.
Deputy Minister, I would have thought that your statement today might have focused a bit more on your own Government's shortcomings, and concerned with more things that you are actually responsible for. I welcome your focus on the living wage, but I was disappointed to find that the agricultural advisory panel has decided against ending the lower minimum pay rate for those below 25. This strikes me as rather absurd, as you talk of fair work and fair pay, but yet allow such discrimination against young agricultural workers. Deputy Minister, the rates of £4.81 per hour for 16 to 17-year-olds, and £6.83 per hour for 18 to 20-year-olds, are entirely out of step with the principle of a fair wage for fair work. A 16 to 20-year-old is likely to work just as hard, and will probably have just as many skills, as an older agricultural worker. As I'm sure you're aware, Wales has a significant rural economy, and if we are to encourage the next generation of agricultural workers, this Government needs to seriously address this disparity. What explanation can you offer the Chamber for keeping these wages for agricultural workers under 25 so low?
In your statement, you mention that we have a record number of organisations who are real living wage accredited—almost 500. But how many trade unions have signed up, Deputy Minister? I can tell you that the number of accredited trade unions in Wales who have signed up to be real living wage accredited is none. Not one trade union has signed up—that is how much they think about and value this accreditation scheme that you promote. And I would ask, Deputy Minister, if you can explain why trade unions cannot be bothered to sign up in Wales, and only seven unions have in England and Scotland.
Last year, I mentioned in my response to your annual statement that you failed to make any reference whatsoever to fair work for disabled people. Yet again, you haven't mentioned any progress to remove and reduce the barriers that disabled people are presented with, and you haven't mentioned any initiatives to help close the disability employment gap. Instead, you have taken this opportunity to attack the UK Government. With this in mind, I want to emphasise how important it is that the Welsh Government recognise that fair work should be for all, and by not providing updates on the needs of the disabled community, it is quite disheartening to them. Disabled people face some of the biggest barriers in attaining fair work, and, indeed, fair pay, for the skills that they can bring to businesses. And so, Deputy Minister, will you make a commitment to provide an update on how this Government is helping disabled people achieve fair work in next year's statement?
Finally, Deputy Minister, I want to mention young people and apprenticeships. Whilst we have many opportunities for apprenticeships—and I have recently visited Cardiff and Vale College and Coleg y Cymoedd to hear of the fantastic courses that they offer—Wales actually has a declining number of people taking up apprenticeships. We've spoken numerous times in this Chamber about how businesses in Wales are stifled by a skills shortage, in particular, how young people and graduates do not have the relevant skills set needed for businesses. And as you know, having the skills that businesses need allows workers to have more resilience, because they're able to access higher paying jobs and be able to find work faster if they're ever made redundant, for example. Therefore, Deputy Minister, what steps are you taking to promote apprenticeships as a valid pathway for young people to obtain well-paid and fulfilling jobs that meet the fair work criteria? Thank you.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I'll start by addressing the most substantive contributions from Joel James, and in particular around the very important points that he makes around support for disabled workers, people with disabilities, around fair work. I'm more than happy to commit to including that in a future update, but I'm also happy to go away and see if we can update Members in writing, ahead of that as well. I would say, just because things aren't included in my oral statement today doesn't mean that they're not happening; it's just on the basis that we have a limited amount of time to update in the Senedd Chamber today. And I'm sure that the Llywydd would have something to say if I listed every single item in the Fair Work Commission progress report update.
I'm not surprised by—. Joel James opens by saying thathe wasn't surprised by my apparently ideological stance around trade unions. Likewise, I'm not surprised that that was Joel James's opening line. I think we're all very familiar with that in this Chamber now, and it's all very well rehearsed.
Just a point on the issues around the referenced agricultural advisory panel. I'm not sure whether Joel's aware that, obviously, that came out of the embers of the Agricultural Wages Board for England and Wales. It was a Tory Government, a Conservative Government, who wanted to axe the agricultural wages board, and actually, in a former life, I was part of the campaign to try and stop that and, when that went ahead, to make sure that there was support in place for workers here in Wales through the agricultural advisory panel. And I'm sure some of the points he's made around the disparities in the minimum wage will be fed back to members of that panel, on which there's equal representation from trade unions and across the farming unions as well, and independent members, and I'm sure they will hear those comments loud and clear to be fed back. But it is this Government that is very much on the side of workers and putting those mechanisms to make sure that we can do right by workers, whether they're in urban or rural settings.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you for this afternoon's statement, and for the report you published today too.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: As we will discuss in the Plaid debate tomorrow, the fair work agenda needs to have a central role in shaping Wales's future industrial and economic strategy. In response to the draconian strikes Bill making its way through Westminster, it is vital for us in Wales to define clear principles related to fair work. This will protect future generations from the alarming legislation we are seeing coming out of Westminster. In light of today's accepted fair work recommendations, I note what you said about how the Welsh Government is going to achieve policy commitments to promoting trade unions and collective bargaining in the face of the draconian UK legislation. Which of these do you think will have the most impact in mitigating some of that attack from Westminster on trade unionism?
The other matter I wanted to turn to is the Fair Work Commission's 2019 recommendation that a definition of 'fair work' in Wales should consist of workers being fairly rewarded, heard and represented, secure and able to progress in a healthy, inclusive environment where rights are respected. It's a positive step in the right direction to see that the Fair Work's Commission's definition has been accepted for adoption and use across Welsh Government. However, for a definition recommendation in 2019 to only now be accepted highlights that there is work to be done when it comes to proactive decision making. Why wasn't this definition accepted sooner, and what more can be done now to embed this definition in practice? Diolch yn fawr.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Diolch. Can I thank Peredur Owen Griffiths for his questions and also his commitment in this area? I know that we have been able to work together in the spirit of partnership very collaboratively on a number of these issues. I think I'll just pick up on the last point first around the Fair Work Commission definition around fair work. Just to clarify, this is the first time we've published a progress report. I think it's something we wanted to do previously, but it's something we've managed to get over the line now. And I particularly think it's important, like I said, that, whereas many of those recommendations have moved forward, the context for it has changed quite drastically on the back of the COVID pandemic, and now the cost-of-living crisis, changes to working patterns and more flexible working opportunities. So, it brings with it more challenges, but I think also if we go for a glass-half-full approach, it brings potentially more opportunities for fair work as well. So, just to pick up on the point that we aren't—. Just to clarify, we're not just accepting that definition now; it's just that it's in that report that's been published today. We accepted that some time ago, the Fair Work Commission definition, and it's something that we've spoken about in the development of the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill legislation as well, and that will be in the guidance as very much the definition that Welsh Government supports and wants to disseminate across Wales in terms of that baseline of understanding that fair work, yes, is about pay and conditions, but it's about that broader package as well—like you say, workers' voice, well-being in the workplace, and all those levers that we can use.
On how we use those sectoral agreements, we have the most levers currently within the public sector, but I think what the work in the retail sector has demonstrated to us is, actually, the challenges faced by workers but also from the employer business side in terms of the sustainability of some sectors in Wales. And I think you could probably look at hospitality as well as part of that. So, actually, better sector-wide support for workers in terms of sector-wide pay and conditions that actually brings about sustainability and stability for the sector can actually help to get that through. There was a business case for fairer and better work as well, so I’m always happy to update Members as that work progresses. But I think what we’ve done already within retail and social care perhaps offers that model to build on in the future, and actually how we can learn from that and spread that across Wales.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your statement today. As a former teacher, I particularly welcome your comment around the new curriculum and unions in the place of work. Linking an understanding of workplace rights to career guidance is fundamentally the right thing to do, and I look forward to the results of the pilot in due course.
I have a couple of questions for you today. Firstly, I note your comments around the social care fair work forum. I’m sure we’d all agree on the urgent need to expand our social care workforce, and raising the status of that profession, not least through the fair work agenda, is absolutely key to that. So, can you expand a little on the discussions Welsh Government is having around this, and on the model of fair work that you are keen to promote beyond the delivery of the real living wage?
Linked to this, I think recommendations 46 and 47 on tracking progress are vital. Access to good-quality data is important if we are to be able to monitor delivery and the pace of delivery, and identify and resolve any barriers. I commend Welsh Government for making the changes to the national indicators suggested. How will these be used to shape and drive performance to ensure that we can provide fair work in the social care sector?
Finally, Deputy Minister, we also heard from the economy Minister earlier today on how innovation will be embedded across all areas of Government. So, I’d welcome your reflections on how fair work fits into this in line with that very first recommendation that this is also a cross-Government responsibility. How can we use innovation as a lever to enable us to better promote and deliver fair work for Welsh citizens?

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank Vikki Howells for her contribution and for her warm comments about some of the work we did. I know this an area that, not just as a former teacher, you’re very passionate about, but as somebody that advocates for fairer and better work in communities right across the country.
Just to touch on the social care fair work forum and how we’re moving forward, and the need to address things in that sector, obviously we addressed that immediate concern around the real living wage, and I think you touched in your latter comments that the real living wage is a key component, but is just one component of fair work. I think I’ve said in this Chamber before, actually, we should see it as a baseline rather than a benchmark—that foundation to build upon and to grow on.
Obviously, there’s more work to do to improve terms and conditions, and also elevate the status of social care as a valued career and one that is so fundamental to all of our communities and all of our families in terms of looking after, in many of our cases, our nearest and dearest, and make sure there are those opportunities for career progression. This is work that my colleague Julie Morgan is very much leading on, but obviously I’m feeding into it as a cross-Government approach around making sure we embed that fair work approach. So, the forum has recently looked at things like sick pay within the independent sector, considering a structure for collective bargaining for social care workers, and the development of a pay and progression framework. A sub-group of the forum, which includes different social partners, has developed a draft framework for pay and progression to find more consistency in roles and pay, as well as better and clearer career opportunities. I anticipate that the consultation on the draft framework will open in the spring as part of a wider consultation on national commissioning guidelines that aim to streamline commissioning of services and offer better support for commissioners and providers.
Just to comment on the point around innovation, too, and the role that fair work plays, you’re absolutely right to say this has to be a cross-Government commitment. I might lead on fair work, but actually we need to embed it right across what we do in Welsh Government, so I think innovation and things that we’re doing—. I know that the Wales TUC is fully engaged with that work to make sure actually there is a role, potentially, for trade union reps to play in embedding innovation, especially as we look to what we call the just transition as well. Addressing the climate crisis is an issue of social and economic justice as well as environmental justice, too, so there really is an opportunity in how we use that social partnership working in Wales and those forums that we have already in existence to make sure that that innovation works for both business and communities, but also for individuals and workers as well.
And just very finally, on the comments on the pilot programme in schools, yes, I really look forward to see what the outcome of the pilot programme is, and I was lucky enough, a while ago now, to visit a school—unfortunately, not in the Member's patch, but in Newport—and to see a group of young people and see it in action. It was really good to see they were talking about the idea of working together on things beyond work, as well. So, actually, they'd established campaigns about things they wanted to achieve within school and out of school. Maybe a Welsh Government in the future might live to regret it when we've got a group of young people campaigning outside, but I think it's really, actually, teaching people to use their voice, to know that they have rights and about the power of working collectively to achieve change.

And finally, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Social partnerships have to be the key that underpins everything in the workplace, and, contrary to the Tory myth and ideological constructs that they have that are different to ours, social partnerships actually benefit both the worker and the employer. It puts people in a position of having a dialogue, rather than a confrontation, and we've seen plenty of confrontation and lack of dialogue quite recently, and it serves no-one well. So, I really welcome this statement that you've made today, and I also welcome the fact that we're getting into schools and teaching young people the benefits of knowing their rights at work before they go into work. So, if they see a situation that isn't to their benefit, they will be able to raise those objections and, perhaps, highlight weaknesses in the employment that might last for many decades throughout their lifetime, and they'll feel part then, I believe, of that company and they'll feel a belonging, which, of course, the Tories have failed to understand.

Hannah Blythyn AC: I thank Joyce Watson for her contribution today, and I very much resonate the contribution and comments you make around the value of social partnership and that it's not just in the interests of workers and trade unions; it's in the interests of employers, whether public, private, voluntary sector or others. We've seen that recognised through the work that we've done in Wales, and the whole point of working together in social partnership is you're not always going to agree, but you have the mechanism to come together to identify challenges and try and find collective solutions. It brings benefits to businesses, it brings benefits for Wales as well.
On the point around the union from the world of work and going into schools, I think I've said before, maybe not in here, but unless you're a multimillionaire or you win the lottery, you're likely to spend a high proportion of your life at work, and young people are, sadly, the least likely to know their rights at work but the most likely to be in a position where they're exploited. So, it's really important that we equip and empower our young people to enter the world of work with that knowledge and with that understanding, but also not just as, perhaps, employees and workers themselves, but as the employers and entrepreneurs of the future as well.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

10. Motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill

Next is a motion to vary the order of consideration of Stage 3 amendments to the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales), Bill. I call on the Deputy Minister once again to move the motion—Hannah Blythyn.

Motion NDM8208 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that Senedd Cymru, in accordance with Standing Order 26.36:
Agrees to dispose of sections and schedules to the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill at Stage 3 in the following order:
a) Sections 1-22
b) Schedule 1
c) Sections 23-24
d) Schedule 2
e) Sections 25-49
f) Long Title.

Motion moved.

Hannah Blythyn AC: Moved.

The motion has been moved. I have no speakers. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? There are no objections, and the motion under item 10 is agreed.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

11. The Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) Regulations 2023

We move, therefore, to item 11, the Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) Regulations, and I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government to move the motion—Rebecca Evans.

Motion NDM8209 Lesley Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 27.5:
1. Approves The Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) Regulations 2023 laid in the Table Office on 26 January 2023.

Motion moved.

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch. I move the motion to approve the Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) Regulations 2023. The regulations set the non-domestic rating multiplier for 2023-24. On 12 December, I announced the decision to freeze the multiplier for 2023-24. It will remain at the same level set since 2020-21, which is 0.535. This means that all the rates bills paid in 2023-24 will be substantially lower than they would otherwise be. This change will help businesses and other ratepayers in Wales, particularly given the pressures that they've been facing, whilst maintaining a stable stream of tax revenue for local services. The freeze is fully funded by the Welsh Government. We're investing over £100 million annually to cover the cost, so there'll be no impact on the funding provided for services via NDR. I'm grateful to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for its consideration of the regulations, and I ask Members to approve the regulations today.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister. We all know that SMEs are the beating heart of our Welsh economy. They provide vital employment and contribute to a sense of community and belonging. And while I'm pleased that that the multiplier has not risen, we cannot support the freeze, because it is clear that much more could have been done to support the business community. For example, as the explanatory memorandum highlighted in option 3, where it suggests an option to reduce the multiplier by 2 per cent, well, that would have brought us more in line with the rest of the UK. The fact is that businesses in both Scotland and England pay a lower rate of business rates than businesses do in Wales. Their multipliers are more generous, as are their small business relief schemes. It's clear that the cost of doing business is higher here in Wales than the rest of Great Britain, stunting business growth and increasing the pressures on business at a time when we should be looking to support them. So, much more could be done; whilst we welcome the freeze, it's not far—. We haven't done enough. Thank you.

Rebecca Evans AC: Shall I respond to the debate, Llywydd?

Oh, sorry. Yes. I forgot that I had to say something. The Minister to respond, if she wishes to.

Rebecca Evans AC: Yes, please. I am disappointed that the Conservatives are not supporting the freeze to the multiplier, because, of course, the alternative is that the multiplier rises in line with the consumer prices index, which would obviously be very bad news for businesses right across Wales, and we have to remember as well that the multiplier is only one factor that determines the ratepayer'sbill, and it shouldn't be considered in isolation. Another factor, of course, is the rateable value of the property itself, and our tax base, with an average rateable value of around £19,000, is very, very different to that across the border in England, where they have a much higher average at around £33,000, and obviously then that drives a large difference in the average liability of ratepayers.
And it's also worth recognising, of course, that our support in terms of freezing the multiplier is only part of our support for businesses. We're providing through the final budget, which has been published today, over £460 million of support to ratepayers in Wales over the next two financial years, and that's on top of the £240 million of support that we provide every year. So, we're providing very extensive support to ratepayers across Wales in terms of, particularly, small businesses, but also those businesses in the retail, hospitality and leisure sectors, who will have their bills next year reduced by 75 per cent as a result of the support that we're providing.
And obviously, colleagues will be aware of the revaluation that has been taking place, and the fact that some properties will see their rates increase, so we've put in place transitionary support for all of those businesses who will see an increase of more than £300 as a result of that revaluation—again, a really fair and pragmatic approach to supporting businesses. And I think our package of new support, together with our permanent relief schemes, does ensure that we have really welcoming environment here for businesses in Wales, whilst of course protecting our local governmental funding.
And the regulations that we've put forward today will deliver a key element of that support, preventing the inflationary increases in rates bills that ratepayers would otherwise face, and, for that reason, Llywydd, I would ask the Conservatives to think again about their intention to vote against that course of action this afternoon.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is objection. We will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

12. Legislative Consent Motion on the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill

We move now to item 12, LCM on the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. And I call on the Minister for Climate Change to move the motion. Julie James.

Motion NDM8207 Julie James
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6 agrees that provisions in the ​Social Housing (Regulation) Bill​ in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I move the motion. This is a UK Bill intended to reform the regulation of social housing providers in England. English social housing providers own or manage around 500 homes in Wales; therefore, the changes proposed by this Bill will have an impact on people who live in these homes, because the Bill will change the way that their landlords are regulated. The legislative consent of the Senedd is required where UK legislation makes provision for any purpose within the competence of the Senedd. Housing is a devolved matter and so, although the Bill impacts on a relatively small number of people who live in Wales, the requirement for consent is triggered.
The legislative consent memoranda laid identify and explain why I believe consent is required. My general view is that the changes proposed to the English regime aim to ensure that landlords are more accountable to their tenants for their performance and, therefore, I recommend that legislative consent is given. It's important to note that consent to these provisions merely preserves the current position for those tenants in terms of how their landlords are regulated and to note that the Welsh Government has not asked for any of these changes to apply to Welsh social landlords.
The regulatory regime in Wales is framed around different statutory provisions and operates very differently to that in England. Although the nature of social landlords is also different in England and Wales, to some extent, they all provide similar services for some of the most disadvantaged people and communities and face similar challenges.Recognising some of those challenges, I launched a set of new regulatory standards and a revised regulatory framework for Wales in January 2022. I set challenging standards on the way landlords engage with and listen to tenants, make performance information available, achieve high levels of tenant satisfaction with the services they provide and learn from complaints. The absolute requirement to keep tenants safe in their home is also set out clearly in the standards, further reinforced by the fitness for human habitation duty set out in the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, which came into force in December.
In recommending consent to be given to this UK Bill, I can assure Members that the issues it sets out to address have been, and are always, under consideration here in Wales. I would thank the committees that have considered the memoranda on this Bill. I note the concerns in relation to provision of timely information and due scrutiny. Often this is out of the direct control of the Welsh Government and, whilst I will always attempt to provide information as promptly as possible, I must inform the Senedd that I'm now aware that further amendments were published just yesterday, which are being considered by officials and which may also trigger the requirement for consent.
I intend to write to the relevant UK Minister to express my dissatisfaction with the late tabling of amendments and its impact on this Senedd's ability to effectively scrutinise the complete Bill. I know the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee have reported on the latest memorandum yesterday. They agree on all points save one. I maintain the position set out in the last LCM that consent is needed for the amendment to Schedule 5, which is in relation to data protection, which is Government amendment 35. I would, though, like to thank both committees that have considered this Bill and I'm pleased that there is agreement on most points relating to the requirement for consent and a majority recommendation that consent should be given.
So, Llywydd, to conclude, I recommend that Members support the legislative consent motion in respect of the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. Diolch.

The Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee, John Griffiths.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I'm speaking in my capacity as Chair of the committee—the Local Government and Housing Committee, as you said, Llywydd. We've laid two reports on the legislative consent memoranda for the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. We reported on the initial LCM, supplementary memorandum No. 2 and supplementary memorandum No. 3 in December last year. We reported on supplementary memorandum No. 4 on 13 January. Llywydd, as I explained in a letter to the Business Committee, regrettably, we did not have sufficient time to report on the most recent supplementary memorandum, No. 5, which was laid on 15 February—the day before the only meeting at which we were able to consider it.
We note that the Welsh Government states that provisions will apply to the approximately 530 social housing properties in Wales that are owned or managed by English-registered providers and that the vast majority of social housing properties in Wales will not be affected. We also note that the Welsh Government states that the Bill will bring positive changes for those Welsh tenants who will be impacted. But we believe that the short amount of time allocated to the legislative consent process is insufficient to enable us to fully understand the impact of provisions on the lives of people in Wales. And we're concerned that legislating in this way can disadvantage people in Wales as they have fewer opportunities to feed in their views to those making the legislation and we do not have the opportunity to test the provisions with Welsh stakeholders.
The committee is very frustrated that we were unable to scrutinise the provisions in memorandum No. 5 and report our views to the Senedd ahead of this debate. As it was laid the day before our meeting, we were only able to consider the provisions very briefly. Members feel strongly that having only one meeting to consider and report on an LCM is insufficient. Twice, Llywydd, I have written to the Business Committee on behalf of the committee to outline our concerns around the increased use of UK Bills and the legislative consent convention to legislate in devolved areas.
Despite these concerns, most members of the committee feel that they can recommend the Senedd gives its consent to legislate on the devolved matters in the initial memorandum and memoranda Nos. 2 to 4. One member of the committee, Mabon ap Gwynfor MS, disagrees with the majority view and believes that consent should not be granted. Given the time available for the scrutiny of supplementary memorandum No. 5, we are not in a position to come to a view on whether to recommend to the Senedd that it gives or withholds legislative consent in relation to the provisions included in the latest memorandum.
Llywydd, I would like to conclude by repeating previous pleas that the Welsh Government should ensure that committees have the necessary time and information to be able to play a meaningful role in the legislative consent process. Diolch yn fawr.

The Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you, Llywydd. I'll be as quick as possible. We have produced three reports covering the five consent memoranda that have been laid by the Minister for this Bill. The first was completed last November, and the third was laid only yesterday afternoon.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Now, last month, Llywydd, I spoke in the debate on the legislative consent motion for the UK Infrastructure Bank Bill and I noted that our final report on that Bill was our fortieth report on legislative consent memoranda in this sixth Senedd—the fortieth report. Since then, we've reported on a further four legislative consent memoranda.
So, my comments this afternoon will focus on the large number of memoranda for the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the Minister has laid five legislative consent memoranda for this Bill, demonstrating the extent to which the Bill introduced to the UK Parliament has both changed since its introduction and the extent to which such changes impact on devolved areas.Our consideration of all the memoranda for this Bill serves to highlight the profound inadequacies of enabling a different Parliament to legislate for Wales on devolved matters.
In our latest report we have welcomed the Minister’s action to lay memorandum No. 5 before the Senedd within a few days of the relevant amendments being tabled in the UK Parliament. That is truly welcome. However, given that the debate was scheduled for today, Senedd colleagues on the Local Government and Housing Committee, as you've just heard, who have been trying to look at the important policy detail and implications of this Bill, haven't been able to scrutinise the latest amendments and the supplementary consent memorandum. It's only because the committee timetable enables our committee to meet on a Monday afternoon and we were able to consider the memorandum yesterday and report straight afterwards, ahead of this debate, that we're able to make these remarks right now. This is not the way, though, to scrutinise primary legislation that will have an impact in Wales.
John Griffiths, my fellow Chair, the Chair of the local government committee, has summarised this predicament well in his remarks today and in his recent letter to the Business Committee. The increased use of UK Bills and the legislative consent convention to legislate in devolved areas means there is insufficient opportunity for Members of the Senedd to scrutinise proposed new laws and to fully understand the impact of these provisions on the lives of people in Wales.
Now, at this point, I will highlight again the timing issues with the first memorandum and memorandum No. 2. It took the Welsh Government 10 weeks to lay the first memorandum, by which point the Senedd had actually entered the summer recess period, and there was a six-week delay between the tabling of relevant amendments to the Bill in the House of Lords and the laying of memorandum No. 2. So, in our report on those early memoranda we did take the opportunity to remind the Minister—and challenge the Minister and all Welsh Ministers—of the importance of providing timely information to Senedd Members so as not to add to the democratic deficiencies caused by UK Bills making provision for Wales in devolved areasand the associated consent process. But, in that spirit of being a constructive and critical friend, in our report on memoranda Nos. 3 and 4, we welcomed the fact that memorandum No. 4 was laid before the Senedd within 14 days of the relevant amendments being tabled before the UK Parliament. This is really welcome and the Government has clearly listened and we do welcome that.
So, before closing, Minister, we've also noted, as you did in your remarks, that further amendments were tabled to this Bill yesterday, so we may be back here again. These amendments may also impact on devolved areas and therefore engage the legislative consent process, so Minister, again, perhaps you could just continue to reflect on these concerns in the way forward on this and in your closing remarks, but we welcome the timeliness of the recent laying of this, even though it's given very limited time for committees to consider it.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Of course, the purpose of the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill is to facilitate a new proactive approach to regulating social housing landlords on consumer issues. Such issues include safety, transparency and tenant engagement. This Bill has three main objectives: to facilitate a new proactive consumer regulation regime, refine the existing economic regulatory regime, and strengthen the regulator for social housing's powers to enforce the consumer and economic regimes.
Approximately 530 properties in Wales are owned and/or managed by an English provider that will be subject to the changes described by this Bill. The Minister for Climate Change has described it as appropriate for the provisions to be dealt with within the UK Parliament Bill, due to the small numbers of social housing stock in Wales owned or managed by an England-based provider. Describing the clauses as 'positive' for tenants in Wales, the Minister recommends the Senedd consents to the provisions, and I'm grateful to the Minister for that. The Minister for Climate Change also noted the positive impact of the Bill on Welsh tenants through the strengthening of tenants' rights as a justification for granting consent, and again I agree.
This is set to be achieved by making safety and transparency explicit parts of the regulator's objectives. The UK Government would remove the serious detriment test—a legislative barrier to regulator action on consumer issues. Also, the UK Government will require landlords to nominate a designated person for health and safety issues. Social housing landlords would also be subject to new requirements for electrical safety checks. This objective is to ensure that providers are well governed and financially viable to protect homes and invest in new supply, through refining the regulator's current economic regulatory role. This will protect tenants from the risks of provider insolvency, while supporting the development of new homes, and that is something that we on these benches have long been calling for. The Bill also provides for tough new enforcement powers to ensure the regulator can effectively intervene when required. The regulator would have the appropriate tools to deal with non-compliance by social landlords, encourage landlords to maintain standards, and avoid the threat of enforcement action.
Thirty-two provisions in the Bill have been identified by the Welsh Government as requiring Senedd consent, including clause 9, designating a health and safety lead; clause 18, allowing the regulator to issue a code of practice on consumer standards; and clause 24, enabling the regulator to take emergency remedial action against serious health and safety risks. There are an additional two clauses that the Welsh Government has identified as maybe requiring consent. Clause 33 enables the Secretary of State to make provision that is consequential on this Bill by regulations. The Welsh Government acknowledges that this is outside of the Senedd's competence. Based on the relation to other provisions in the Bill, the Welsh Government have claimed that the Senedd's consent is required; however, in and of itself, the specific clause does not fall within the devolved remit.
Supplementary legislative consent memorandum No. 3 was laid before the Senedd on 17 November 2022. Such amendments included a new power for the regulator to set a standard on matters relating to competence and conduct of staff, which the Secretary of State could require the regulator to set; and also to impose a duty on the regulator to make a plan that sets out the descriptions of registered providers to be subject to regular inspections. These measures again meet the threshold of strengthening tenants' rights,and so, it again strengthens the case for consent to be granted. The Welsh Government disagrees, however, with the UK Government on whether consent is required for five of these clauses.
Of course, the legal considerations as to where exactly the line falls between reserved and devolved areas isn't always black and white. Increased devolution over the last 25 years has naturally increased some complexity. However, seeing as the Welsh Government recommends that consent be granted anyway, I think it's very important that we remember the people that this legislation is designed to help, and they are vulnerable tenants in need. For the sake of these people, we cannot have a situation where inter-governmental disagreements take precedence over practically implementing the framework that these social housing tenants need. So, we will be supporting this motion. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Well, following the contribution of John Griffiths, it will come as no surprise to any of you that I, and those of us on these benches, oppose this motion today and, in the process, will upset my new friend, Janet Finch-Saunders.
This Bill, like so many of the legislative consent memoranda that we've seen over the last 18 months, undermines our national legislature here, and, therefore, specifically undermines the policies of this Government and this Senedd in the area of housing policy, and it also fails to tackle the great challenges facing the social housing sector in Wales.
The purpose of devolution, as weak as it is, is to give us the power to set policy in specific areas here in Wales, such as health, education, the environment and housing. But if we give our consent to this memorandum today, then we will transfer a small part of our powers in the area of housing back to Westminster. This, of course, is entirely unacceptable. 
In addition, Westminster legislation that has been designed to meet the needs of England, such as in the area of housing, does not meet the challenges facing us here in Wales. We have different challenges here, and Wales must respond to these challenges with our own policy framework. If we are not able to solve the problems here with the limited powers that we have, then the solution is to demand more powers in order to tackle these challenges. 
One of the concerns that I have regarding this LCM is the fact that there is social housing in Wales that comes under the control of housing associations in England, which will be accountable to Westminster legislation instead of being accountable to Welsh legislation. The requirements and standards in Wales are higher than in England—and congratulations to the Welsh Government for ensuring that—but we must ensure that everyone here in Wales can expect those same standards. Enabling this LCM today means that some social housing in Wales will continue to meet different and lower standards. That should not happen, and we must have consistency in terms of our expectations here in Wales.
Finally, we should note that this is the fifth LCM that has been introduced for this Bill. On every single occasion, we've had very little opportunity to scrutinise and consult on the Bill and its impact on tenants who live in Wales. This, of course, is entirely inadequate. The fact that there have been five LCMs demonstrates how the proposed Bill has been changed and adjusted, and how the elected Members of Westminster, and indeed developments in housing in England, are able to influence the Bill, because it is their Bill. But we have almost no voice here. It will affect the daily lives of tenants who live in Wales—the people whom we represent—and yet, neither we nor them have any influence on it. The lack of time to scrutinise and understand the proposed legislation is entirely unacceptable. So, I therefore urge you to vote against this LCM today. Thank you.

The Minister to reply. Julie James.

Julie James AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I completely acknowledge the disappointment of Members at the lack of time to scrutinise these LCMs. As I said in my opening remarks, we are very disappointed that the UK Government has chosen to table late amendments in this way, and indeed, we know now, has chosen to table further amendments at Report Stage. So, I may need to lay another supplementary legislative consent memorandum, if required, to inform the debate.
I intend to write to the relevant UK Minister to express my dissatisfaction that the Report Stage is likely to go ahead without the Senedd being given the opportunity to consider the case for consent relating to the Bill in its entirety as a result of the late additions. The latest amendments relate to the professionalisation of the social housing workforce in England. We are in the process of analysing the amendment and will provide advice on whether a further SLCM is required as soon as possible, as well as any potential implications for the housing workforce in Wales.
Llywydd, I am very grateful indeed to the Chairs of the committees. I have tried to consider and have considered the various reports, and my apologies to them—we have tried very hard to get the LCMs to you in good time, but, as you know, we're defeated by the late laying of the amendments, and there's been little we can do about that. But, nevertheless, I apologise for that situation.
We will be working with the UK Government to make sure that we try to maximise the amount of scrutiny that the Senedd can give the Bill, but, nevertheless, I disagree with Mabon entirely because dissatisfaction with the process is not a reason to remove the improved regulation of the social landlords who do have properties in Wales from those tenants. That would be very much an own goal in my view. The fact that the process in entirely unsatisfactory does not mean that those tenants should be deprived of that additional protection.
I also disagree with Janet Finch-Saunders, and I think one of the other committee members also said it, that Schedule 5 doesn't require consent. We continue to say that Schedule 5 does require consent.
Nevertheless, despite this, Llywydd, I think there's a majority view in the Senedd that the LCM should be supported, and I would urge all Members to support the legislative consent motion in respect of the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, and we will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

13. Voting Time

That brings us to voting time. There will be two votes, and the first of those is on the Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) Regulations 2023. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 37, no abstentions, 11 against, therefore the motion under item 11 is agreed.

Item 11. The Non-Domestic Rating (Multiplier) (Wales) Regulations 2023: For: 37, Against: 11, Abstain: 0Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on the LCM on the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill. I call for a vote on the motion, tabled in the name of Julie James. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, no abstentions, nine against, therefore the motion under item 12 is agreed.

Item 12. LCM on the Social Housing (Regulation) Bill: For: 39, Against: 9, Abstain: 0Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

That brings our proceedings to a close. Thank you, all.

The meeting ended at 18:44.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

Janet Finch-Saunders: Will the First Minister make a statement on the report by the Auditor General for Wales on the effectiveness of Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board?

Mark Drakeford: The Minister for Health and Social Services has met board members to discuss these concerns and their impact on the day-to-day running of health services in north Wales. She will take whatever action is necessary to ensure services and patient safety are not compromised. A statement will take place later today.

Peter Fox: What support does the Welsh Government offer voluntary organisations that work with the emergency services?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government supports such organisations both directly and indirectly. Direct funding is provided to some voluntary bodies to complement the work of emergency services. Indirect support includes help with training and access to the Wales-wide network of county voluntary councils.

Vikki Howells: What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve access to health services within the Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board area?

Mark Drakeford: A series of national programmes assist the board in providing improved access to its services. These programmes provide the most up-to-date clinical advice and access to latest best practice, so that standards can be improved in all parts of Wales.

Rhys ab Owen: What discussions has the Welsh Government had about seeking powers over the determination of the local housing allowance?

Mark Drakeford: I welcomed the recommendation from the Welsh Affairs Committee for a UK-Welsh Government inter-ministerial advisory board on social security. Sadly, that proposal was rejected by the UK Government. It would have provided a forum where services such as local housing allowances could have been discussed.

Luke Fletcher: Will the First Minister provide an update on any further developments on the more detailed review of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008?

Mark Drakeford: The review has begun with an evidence-gathering and mapping exercise. This will inform the development of sustainable and affordable policy options to support safe, equitable, affordable and accessible transport for our learners in Wales.

Natasha Asghar: What action is the Welsh Government taking to encourage more students, particularly girls, to consider a career in STEM?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government has provided almost £1.5 million in grant funding this financial year to support the delivery of STEM initiatives with a strong focus on encouraging girls to consider careers in STEM.